[Gerben42]

Inspired by another post: I have never opened a strong NT with say 13 and a good 6-card minor. Some people will, but I have never seen the point. I'm willing to change.

Knowing that's it getting popular my questions are:

* What are your requirements for such a bid? Especially major suit holdings.
* What would a similar approach look like, playing a WEAK NT?
* What are the good things that happened to you, what are the bad?

[cherdanno]

I don't think this translates well into weak NT. The ideal hand for this has honor doubletons in the majors and a good 6-card suit, which usually makes it too strong to open a weak NT.

This week I opened 1NT (14-16) on Kx Jx AKJ9x JTxx, white against red, 1st seat - but opponents still tanked their way to 4♠ making. Well, almost worked

[Jlall]

Stealing their games or getting to 3N quickly with a concealed surprise so that you steal some no play games on the lead or subsequent defense are the best things that can happen.

Ideally I am third seat with lots of offense and little defense. xx xx AKQxxx Axx would be a perfect hand.

Not sure I would ever upgrade by 2 points in first seat. Or did you mean a 13 count playing 14-16 like cherdano did, because that is pretty normal/fine and I agree with his answer.

edit: lol just noticed the tilte of this thread, guess you are talking about third seat. In that case its awesomeeeeeee

[gnasher]

Another objective is to win the partscore battle. It's harder for them to judge whether to compete further after coming in over 1NT than after 1m (1M), especially if they play a fairly destructive style against 1NT.

[WesleyC]

While opening a wide ranging 1NT in 3rd seat does have real benefits, a lot of (undeserved) gains can come as a result of not properly informing the opponents about your tendency to make such bids.

One incident occurred at world juniors a few years ago playing against the USA. At the time we were playing a non-penalty double of 3rd seat 'strong' NT. Grue/Kranyak (i think?) opened a 'strong' NT in 3rd seat about 4 times in the match and didn't once have a full opening bid. My memory is a bit hazy but I think they brought home a no-play 3NT with 12 opposite 10 on mis-defence and then later in the match responder didn't even invite with a bad 9. I felt the whole thing was pretty unethical.

I confronted them about it after the match (in a friendly way) and got the 'it's just bridge' response. In an international event where styles vary heavily from country to country they could've been a lot more transparent about their agreements.

Light 3rd seat NT openings have become more popular in Australia since then. These days I usually treat a 3rd seat NT as weak (with penalty doubles and a constructive overcall structure focused around majors). I've found this solves a lot of the problems.

<edited to change to the tone of the post>

[gwnn]

I don't understand. Why 'confront them'? Why not call the TD? If you think your opponents are doing something unethical/illegal/something like that, just being bitter about it is not the way to go.

[WesleyC]

I think my original post came across the wrong way.

I've changed the post slightly to refect this.

[helene_t]

(32)(62) generally upgrades with one HCP. If it upgrades with two HCPs the suit will usually be good enough for a jump rebid. I think I have only upgraded by two HCPs once, and never psyched a notrump opening.

I think you really need to disclose such tendencies in a regular partnership, and formalize it (making aggressive upgrades mandatory in certain well-defined situations) to avoid the "loop" discussed in Fred's law thread.

[the hog]

Comments like, "Its just bridge" are arrogant and self serving. Had they made this at the table, Wes, there should have been an instant director call.

I agree that these 3rd seat NT bids should definitely be alerted. It soulds like the pair in question had a private agreement.

[Gerben42]

Can someone shed light on how bad it is when the auction does not go your way, for example

1NT passed out?

1NT transfer, accepted, passed out?

p p 1NT p 2NT

or worse Stayman then 2NT

Can you run into 3m?

[kenrexford]

Gerben42, on Aug 1 2009, 06:09 AM, said:

Can someone shed light on how bad it is when the auction does not go your way, for example

1NT passed out?

-I'm not down yet.

1NT transfer, accepted, passed out?

-I'm not down yet

p p 1NT p 2NT

-How's this bad?

or worse Stayman then 2NT

-How's this bad either?

Can you run into 3m?

-You can, if you really want to.

[the hog]

p p 1NT p 2NT

-How's this bad?

or worse Stayman then 2NT

-How's this bad either?

You are kidding, aren't you Ken? Both of these are likely bad for your side.

[Free]

When opps are quiet, I guess it's a winner.

What I wonder most about: what if opps interfere? Do we lose a lot?

[helene_t]

Free, on Aug 2 2009, 12:44 PM, said:

What I wonder most about: what if opps interfere? Do we lose a lot?

Don't think so. They bid less accurately than after a 1m opening, and partner is better placed after our 1NT opening than after our 1m opening. (assuming we play 5-card majors).

[awm]

I assume we're talking about upgrading a 12-13 point hand with a strong minor suit into a notrump range of 15-17 or 14-16, and not about a purely psychic bid on garbage (which has some potential wins certainly, but really a different set of wins and losses).

These hands are actually worth a 1NT opening in terms of "offensive value" -- they just lack the normal amount of defense. If partner bids game you will usually end up having pretty good play (and in fact these games can be hard to reach otherwise). If partner passes or transfers or invites you usually do okay (although 2-minor is often a better partial). Sometimes opponents also have game and it is hard for them to get in (especially if LHO has a strong notrump and they don't play penalty doubles).

If the opponents interfere, it depends on your methods and how much partner is "in on the joke." The worst thing that happens is that partner penalty doubles them in something when an opponent is short in opener's minor and they make. Playing takeout doubles instead of penalty after an overcall helps here (partner passes hoping you reopen and you just pass it out for example). If partner will understand the hand type you have if/when you bid 3m freely later on that will help. And if partner tends to be suspicious when the opponents freely bid a game after your strong notrump opening and not double unless he pretty much has them beat in his own hand (i.e. believes the opponents bidding more than partner's 3rd seat 1NT open) that will also help.

[gnasher]

I don't agree that being raised to 2NT, whether directly or via Stayman, is a bad thing. With a hand that doesn't expect to make game you can sign off in your minor, happy to have kept the opponents out of the auction. With a bit more you bid 3NT, and perhaps get a passive lead when another auction would have told them to lead actively. I usually find a reason to bid game.

You do tend to lose when partner signs off in two of a major in a 5-2 fit. Although that sometimes gains by getting you to a higher-scoring partscore, it's more likely that two of the major will go down when you could make two or three of the minor.

If they intervene and partner tries to penalise them, I think you should overrule him. My typical hand for this type of action would be Kx Qx AKJxxx xxx, and that doesn't have anything like as much defensive strength as partner will expect.

Finally, I don't think this tactic should be restricted to third-seat openings. I do it routinely in all positions. I'm particularly inclined to do it against people who play DONT, Cappelletti, or anything else that includes multi-style overcalls.

[kenrexford]

The_Hog, on Aug 2 2009, 05:14 AM, said:

p p 1NT p 2NT

-How's this bad?

or worse Stayman then 2NT

-How's this bad either?

You are kidding, aren't you Ken? Both of these are likely bad for your side.

I don't get it.

If I open 1NT because I think that I have a better playing hand in a notrump contract than would be obvious on the face of a HCP analysis, why would I be upset if partner then raises that notrump contract?

I generally do not like to open 1NT with the idea being that I desperately do not want to play a notrump contract. Maybe that's just me.

So, if I upgrade, I do so with that thought in mind.

[cherdanno]

Gerben42, on Aug 1 2009, 06:09 AM, said:

Can someone shed light on how bad it is when the auction does not go your way, for example

1NT passed out?

1NT transfer, accepted, passed out?

p p 1NT p 2NT

or worse Stayman then 2NT

Can you run into 3m?

Over an invite, you of course just bid 3N, hoping to run you 6 card suit and get three somewhere else. They might not realize it when you are stealing your 9th trick

[Cascade]

awm, on Aug 3 2009, 01:23 AM, said:

I assume we're talking about upgrading a 12-13 point hand with a strong minor suit into a notrump range of 15-17 or 14-16, and not about a purely psychic bid on garbage (which has some potential wins certainly, but really a different set of wins and losses).

There is a potential regulatory problem if you open some 12 counts and some 17 counts 1NT in that most of the world seem to think this is a six-point range and therefore subject to ACBL regulations requiring that you do not play any conventions thereafter.

[FrancesHinden]

Cascade, on Aug 3 2009, 12:18 PM, said:

awm, on Aug 3 2009, 01:23 AM, said:

I assume we're talking about upgrading a 12-13 point hand with a strong minor suit into a notrump range of 15-17 or 14-16, and not about a purely psychic bid on garbage (which has some potential wins certainly, but really a different set of wins and losses).

There is a potential regulatory problem if you open some 12 counts and some 17 counts 1NT in that most of the world seem to think this is a six-point range and therefore subject to ACBL regulations requiring that you do not play any conventions thereafter.

It's only a problem if you are playing in the ACBL