[helene_t]

1NT-(p)-2♦-(2♠)
pass-(p)-3♣

2♦ is transfer to hearts

[Fluffy]

GF IMO. Ignoring the overcall if its possible.

[aguahombre]

Can 2NT instead of 3C be a variation of lebensohl or good/bad here? Double is also available, so I would think 3m is GF.

[Double !]

aguahombre, on Aug 2 2009, 10:42 AM, said:

Can 2NT instead of 3C be a variation of lebensohl or good/bad here? Double is also available, so I would think 3m is GF.

If 2NT is LEB, then how do you make a game try on a 5332 or similar ilk hand with and without a spade stopper? One way is to play Neg X's here. If not then you have let let the opp's interference disrupt your basic bidding structure when unnecessary.

Eons ago i played 3m as GI, but no one else did.

DHL

[aguahombre]

i don't understand the question...you already transferred. With a 5332 invite you would double now, and it would not be a negative double.

[the hog]

GF

[Cascade]

You need a partnership agreement.

I don't know what is standard.

We play double shows any strong hand not worth a jump to game and new suits are non-forcing.

Lebensohl or something is possible.

[andy_h]

Have never heard of a lebensohl variation in this context.

Like Fluffy said, just keep it simple and play system on. 2NT invite, X takeout, 3x nat GF. If I were to play with a pick-up partner that's what I would also assume.

[ochinko]

3♣ is natural and forcing to 3♥/3NT/4♣. Responder could still force further after opener shows a preference.

[aguahombre]

ochinko, on Aug 3 2009, 01:36 AM, said:

3♣ is natural and forcing to 3♥/3NT/4♣. Responder could still force further after opener shows a preference.

then responder "could" pass 3H or 4C? With 3NT one of the choices, I don't understand that. If you mean 3H, 3NT, or 4C are the only bids Opener can make, I still don't agree. 3D and 3S must have some meaning, and if simple suit preferences "could" be passed, Opener would have to jump prefer with some hands.

[ochinko]

aguahombre, on Aug 3 2009, 09:45 AM, said:

ochinko, on Aug 3 2009, 01:36 AM, said:

3♣ is natural and forcing to 3♥/3NT/4♣. Responder could still force further after opener shows a preference.

then responder "could" pass 3H or 4C? With 3NT one of the choices, I don't understand that. If you mean 3H, 3NT, or 4C are the only bids Opener can make, I still don't agree. 3D and 3S must have some meaning, and if simple suit preferences "could" be passed, Opener would have to jump prefer with some hands.

Sure you can assign some meaning to ♦ and ♠, and they are valid rebids but not final destinations. That makes it even more unlikely that partner will move further if you now rebid 3♥. This is what I meant when I said 3♣ was not GF.

[Cascade]

andy_h, on Aug 3 2009, 03:27 PM, said:

Have never heard of a lebensohl variation in this context.

Like Fluffy said, just keep it simple and play system on. 2NT invite, X takeout, 3x nat GF. If I were to play with a pick-up partner that's what I would also assume.

This doesn't really make sense as a good method since now with a competitive hand with six spades you have no sensible bid.

[gnasher]

I usually play 2NT as Lebensohl and double as balanced values. As usual, there's a good case for playing transfers rather than Lebensohl, but I've never tried that.

[FrancesHinden]

gnasher, on Aug 3 2009, 01:43 PM, said:

I usually play 2NT as Lebensohl and double as balanced values. As usual, there's a good case for playing transfers rather than Lebensohl, but I've never tried that.

So do I

[aguahombre]

Somebody has lost it. You have already transferred to hearts. 2S by the opponent then came back around to you. I doubt you have to worry about having 6 spades. If you have an invite in notrump along with your 5 hearts, you can double --not negative, not takeout, just informative. If you have 6 Hearts and an invite you need a way to show it. If you have a side suit and less than game values you need a way to show it. You also need forcing natural bids.

[andy_h]

Cascade, on Aug 3 2009, 09:25 PM, said:

andy_h, on Aug 3 2009, 03:27 PM, said:

Have never heard of a lebensohl variation in this context.

Like Fluffy said, just keep it simple and play system on. 2NT invite, X takeout, 3x nat GF. If I were to play with a pick-up partner that's what I would also assume.

This doesn't really make sense as a good method since now with a competitive hand with six spades you have no sensible bid.

I never mentioned if it was a good or a bad method? The OP asked what 3♣ is, are you really going to assume anything else but GF with no agreements with partner?

[Fluffy]

Wayne is talking about what to do with 6 hearts and few values, if system is fully on, 3♥ would be invitational, but obviously this is not your intention either.

Limit balanced values are ok doubling, but with 6 hearts I'd rather guess to bid 3 or 4 now than risk to play 2♠X.

[Cascade]

I did mean six hearts or whatever suit was transfered to.

I didn't interpret the initial question of what to do in this auction when you have no agreements. I suppose it could be interpreted that way.

But rather what do you play in this situation? or what should one play in this situation?

System ON doesn't seem like a very sensible method - basically ignore the competitive aspect of the auction.

[peachy]

Matter of meta-agreements. For me: All strange bids are forcing and natural if there is any chance they could be natural. However, the 3C bid is not strange. It is obviously natural and logically forcing. How else is responder going to bid a hand like xx-AQJxx-x-KQJxx or something resembing this one? I assumed strong NT opening.

[MFA]

Competitve and non-forcing. X would be take-out.

I'm more used to 12-14NT's, but I would prefer the same after a strong notrump. Being able to get suits in is crucial for good competitive results.

Similarly I play responder's balances at the 2- or 3-level in a new suit after an opening bid of 1 of a suit as nonforcing. Works great.