[kenrexford]

A thought from a friend:

1♥-P-1NT!-P-
2♣-P-2♠

"This makes sense as a power club acceptance, because we have BART available for some hands and because clubs are often BS here."

1♥-P-1NT!-P-
2♦-P-2♠

"This actually makes more sense as a strong snapdragon-ish looking hand (maybe Hx in hearts, clubs, and 9-11?). Opener has just taken away our possible 2♣ response (if playing SAYC might have done that), and the real diamonds bid means that 3♦ is more appealing. Maybe ♠xxx ♥Kx ♦xxx ♣AQxxx as a typical expected minimum?"

[paraphrased and embellished]

I like this. Anyone else do this???

[mich-b]

I think your example hand is an easy 2♥. Going past 2♥ carries a serious risk of going down in something , since there is no known fit, and not enough hcp to believe we will make 2NT.

I prefer to use this 2♠ as a good ♦ raise (10-11) and 3♦ as a weaker raise (8-9). If you wish you can also include invitational ♣ hands (10-11, 6♣) in the 2♠ bid, with 2NT by opener asking if responder really has ♦ or ♣.

[Cascade]

Looks normal to me.

[Deevan]

I can see some benefit of differentiating, 1HP1NP2CP2S=power club acceptance, from 1HP1NTP2CP3C. I use this method with some partners.


Re:1♥-P-1NT!-P-2♦-P-2♠
I am not sure what methods do you use after 1HP1NP? What do you promise when you bid 2D? We usually bid 2D whenever we have at least 3 diamond cards as opener (fewer club cards). It is not clear what is the advantage of pushing opener to 3 level (minimal fit), or 2 NT (rather doubtful source of tricks)?

[kenrexford]

Deevan, on Aug 4 2009, 01:02 PM, said:

I can see some benefit of differentiating, 1HP1NP2CP2S=power club acceptance, from 1HP1NTP2CP3C. I use this method with some partners.


Re:1♥-P-1NT!-P-2♦-P-2♠
I am not sure what methods do you use after 1HP1NP? What do you promise when you bid 2D? We usually bid 2D whenever we have at least 3 diamond cards as opener (fewer club cards). It is not clear what is the advantage of pushing opener to 3 level (minimal fit), or 2 NT (rather doubtful source of tricks)?

2♦ promises 4; 2♣ could be stiff (if 4531)

[Fluffy]

I think the shapy diamond raise its just so much more likelly that he gets the bid, the other is obviously playable.

[kenrexford]

Fluffy, on Aug 5 2009, 05:11 AM, said:

I think the shapy diamond raise its just so much more likelly that he gets the bid, the other is obviously playable.

Huh?

Why is it more likely that partner has a need for two different diamond raises and no bid for when he has clubs and a heart doubleton? I would think that the snapdragon is actually more useful, myself.

[ONEferBRID]

I like it.

But, I oftened wondered how often any "impossible spade" rebid is used?
Once a year ? every 2 years?
- - - - - - - - - - - - -
Anyway, awhile back I briefly toyed with the following idea over a 1H open.
It is probably "brown sticker", however.

1H - 1NTF! = a) "normal" limited one round forcing NT
or b ) a game force hand with 5 cards Sp

Responder shows hand (b ) with the cheapest Sp bid after Opener's rebid of
2C, 2D, 2H, 3H-jump, or 2S ( reverse ) or 2NT.

In other words, Responder with GF and Spades doesn't have to go thru a possible 4th suit GF after the usual 1H - 1S auction.

[Fluffy]

kenrexford, on Aug 5 2009, 12:41 PM, said:

Fluffy, on Aug 5 2009, 05:11 AM, said:

I think the shapy diamond raise its just so much more likelly that he gets the bid, the other is obviously playable.

Huh?

Why is it more likely that partner has a need for two different diamond raises and no bid for when he has clubs and a heart doubleton? I would think that the snapdragon is actually more useful, myself.

With 2 hearts and 5 clubs you have the 2 heart bid avaible to play a wonderful cheap contract, so I guess you refer to the hand with 3235 with invitational values and no spade stopper. This is not very likelly IMO.

Maybe you can find a way to make the 2♠ meaning either the snapdragon hand or hand with 6 diamonds with no will to play in 3NT but 5 or 6♦.

[Jlall]

Why would you want to go past 2H with xxx Kx xxx AQxxx? Or is the hand supposed to be like an 11 count or something?

[pooltuna]

Jlall, on Aug 5 2009, 10:05 AM, said:

Why would you want to go past 2H with xxx Kx xxx AQxxx? Or is the hand supposed to be like an 11 count or something?

What is the strongest hand you could have to rebid 2♣ in this auction? and does 3NT (or I guess 5C) have reasonable chances opposite it? If the answer to the second question is yes then that is the justification.

[cherdanno]

pooltuna, on Aug 5 2009, 11:19 AM, said:

Jlall, on Aug 5 2009, 10:05 AM, said:

Why would you want to go past 2H with xxx Kx xxx AQxxx? Or is the hand supposed to be like an 11 count or something?

What is the strongest hand you could have to rebid 2♣ in this auction? and does 3NT (or I guess 5C) have reasonable chances opposite it? If the answer to the second question is yes then that is the justification.

No it is not (assuming you are talking about about the 2♦ rebid). You would need to take hands that rebid 2♦ and pass 2♥, and still you would have to compare it with hands where any contracts beyond 2♥ is going down.

[kenrexford]

Jlall, on Aug 5 2009, 10:05 AM, said:

Why would you want to go past 2H with xxx Kx xxx AQxxx? Or is the hand supposed to be like an 11 count or something?

Well, yeah. Toss in a few cards here and there, and you have it.

The discussion hand that brought this up will sound familiar. You are dealt 109x-Kx-10xx-AK9xx, and partner opens 1♥...

I also think that this method takes some heat off Responder, at least with certain methods. If partner tends to open light, and if 1♥-P-2♣ is a clubs-orsupport call (such that clubs are not known to be "real"), and if 2♣...3♣ is non-forcing, then you can bid 1NT with some fairly strong 3235-ish hands, expecting an easy rebid no matter what partner does.

[pooltuna]

cherdanno, on Aug 5 2009, 11:29 AM, said:

pooltuna, on Aug 5 2009, 11:19 AM, said:

Jlall, on Aug 5 2009, 10:05 AM, said:

Why would you want to go past 2H with xxx Kx xxx AQxxx? Or is the hand supposed to be like an 11 count or something?

What is the strongest hand you could have to rebid 2♣ in this auction? and does 3NT (or I guess 5C) have reasonable chances opposite it? If the answer to the second question is yes then that is the justification.

No it is not (assuming you are talking about about the 2♦ rebid). You would need to take hands that rebid 2♦ and pass 2♥, and still you would have to compare it with hands where any contracts beyond 2♥ is going down.

no I was talking about the auction 1♥-1NTF: 2♣. In the other auction I agree it is best to bail out at 2♥ (i.e. over a 2♦ rebid)

[cherdanno]

Well, then you are talking about a different auction than everyone else.

[Echognome]

When I read this, I thought "No matter what you might gain in more accurate bidding, you will lose in extra memory strain on an infrequent auction." The auction is rare and there is a standard meaning. Why not find lower lying apples on the tree?

[kenrexford]

Echognome, on Aug 5 2009, 12:03 PM, said:

When I read this, I thought "No matter what you might gain in more accurate bidding, you will lose in extra memory strain on an infrequent auction." The auction is rare and there is a standard meaning. Why not find lower lying apples on the tree?

I mean, sure. Any idea carries with it the risk that the partnership will forget.

But, one nice thing is that the call is somewhat self-regulating or self-insuring. If partner goes completely nuts and bids 5♦, thinking you have diamonds, you probably do have a fragment, Hx in Opener's second suit, and a few nice club cards. You might get lucky and actually be in an acceptable spot.

[pooltuna]

cherdanno, on Aug 5 2009, 11:58 AM, said:

Well, then you are talking about a different auction than everyone else.

I thought in the auction the 2♠ call implied a limit raise fit with the minor suit bid by the 1♥ opener.

[cherdanno]

pooltuna, on Aug 5 2009, 01:12 PM, said:

cherdanno, on Aug 5 2009, 11:58 AM, said:

Well, then you are talking about a different auction than everyone else.

I thought in the auction the 2♠ call implied a limit raise fit with the minor suit bid by the 1♥ opener.

Sigh. How about you reread the thread?

[pooltuna]

cherdanno, on Aug 5 2009, 01:15 PM, said:

pooltuna, on Aug 5 2009, 01:12 PM, said:

cherdanno, on Aug 5 2009, 11:58 AM, said:

Well, then you are talking about a different auction than everyone else.

I thought in the auction the 2♠ call implied a limit raise fit with the minor suit bid by the 1♥ opener.

Sigh. How about you reread the thread?

No it was too verbose to start with. So I will surrender and no longer respond to any posts on this thread.