[shevek]

Kantar's far-too-long book has guidelines about when BW should be 1430, when 3041. Weak hand/strong hand asking , major/minor agreed, 4NT/4m etc. RKC is important but not worth a book. Is there a middle road in complexity?

I came across this good 3041 hand recently

Scoring: MP

---

1♣   1♥
4♥   4NT
5♣   5♦
5♥

Perhaps East should respond 1♦, 4NT was no thing of beauty. 5♣ showed 0 or 3 so East had room for a queen ask. Well stopped.
When the asker is ostensibly weaker, 3041 seems better. Kantar pointed this out.

It's the heart fits that matter most. In auctions where the stronger hand asks - much more common - 1430 is better.
I saw this last week

Scoring: MP

---

2♣   2♦
2♥   3♥
4N   5♣
5♦   6♥

Another crude but successful effort. This time 1430 located the ♥Q and all was well. These auctions (and ones after 1♥ - 3♥) seem more common.

1430 is often better for club fits. 4NT is a silly ace ask here but minorwood has big problems too. This was funny:

Scoring: MP

---

3041 in play this time. West basically gambled on two aces opposite via
1♣   1♥
3♣   4♣
4N   5♦
oops.

Yes, 4♦ over 4♣ might have been better. 1430 would have made 4NT a decent call.

Should we jump one way and take the bad with the good? Or is it worthwhile having 5-6 lines of RKC agreements?

[helene_t]

IMHO if you are into something more complicated than sticking to a particular RKC flavor all through, it's better scrap RKC and play either kickback or turbo.

[sfi]

shevek, on Aug 3 2009, 06:20 PM, said:

Or is it worthwhile having 5-6 lines of RKC agreements?

Absolutely - especially if you're playing against me.

I bet the number of times opponents have stuffed up 1430 vs 3041 against me is far greater than the number of times that playing one or the other would have made a significant difference. For any but the most serious partnerships, it's a great way to waste time and energy that could be more usefully directed elsewhere.

[nigel_k]

I agree with Helene_t.

If you're going to do something more than basic RKCB, kickback is more effective (there's always a queen ask for any trump suit) and the agreements you need around around it are probably less complex than a set of rules about when 4NT is 1430 and when it's 3041.

[downagain]

helene_t, on Aug 3 2009, 10:50 AM, said:

IMHO if you are into something more complicated than sticking to a particular RKC flavor all through, it's better scrap RKC and play either kickback or turbo.

or Kickback Turbo!!

[helene_t]

downagain, on Aug 3 2009, 10:44 AM, said:

or Kickback Turbo!!

So the bid above the trump suit shows an even number of keycards? Cool! Does anyone play that?

[downagain]

helene_t, on Aug 3 2009, 11:47 AM, said:

downagain, on Aug 3 2009, 10:44 AM, said:

or Kickback Turbo!!

So the bid above the trump suit shows an even number of keycards? Cool! Does anyone play that?

Yeh that's it.. Free and me invented/played that when playing fantunes

[Cascade]

kickback especially on auctions where there is no ambiguity.

It seems very easy to invent methods to get around the ambiguity. We have very few exceptions.

kickback turbo would be great you play turbo. It is just an application of the "Useful Space Principle" of Rubins I believe - somewhere I have the article.

[Tola18]

sfi, on Aug 3 2009, 04:17 AM, said:

For any but the most serious partnerships, it's a great way to waste time and energy that could be more usefully directed elsewhere.

Yes, it is entirely thrue.

That said, it may be a useful new gimmick for steady, longtime partnerships of good players = at least adv+.

[Free]

helene_t, on Aug 3 2009, 10:47 AM, said:

downagain, on Aug 3 2009, 10:44 AM, said:

or Kickback Turbo!!

So the bid above the trump suit shows an even number of keycards? Cool! Does anyone play that?

Read my blog

[aguahombre]

Cascade, on Aug 3 2009, 06:22 AM, said:

It is just an application of the "Useful Space Principle" of Rubins I believe - somewhere I have the article.

A very, very old Bridge World i think...maybe mid 80's

[Phil]

I read Kantar's book a long, long time ago (it was available online), and I could not believe someone of this caliber would suggest mixing 0314 / 1430 depending on the relative strengths of opener / responder.

If you are going to go through all this trouble, just play kickback.

[gordontd]

Cascade, on Aug 3 2009, 12:22 PM, said:

kickback especially on auctions where there is no ambiguity.

It seems very easy to invent methods to get around the ambiguity. We have very few exceptions.

kickback turbo would be great you play turbo. It is just an application of the "Useful Space Principle" of Rubins I believe - somewhere I have the article.

Rubens, I think.

[helene_t]

gordontd, on Aug 3 2009, 04:12 PM, said:

Rubens, I think.

Yes, Jeff Rubens. His articles about the useful space principle are available as a special print. He discusses transfers in response to overcalls, serious 3♠ when hearts are trump, and kick-back.

[neilkaz]

Phil, on Aug 3 2009, 09:58 AM, said:

I read Kantar's book a long, long time ago (it was available online), and I could not believe someone of this caliber would suggest mixing 0314 / 1430 depending on the relative strengths of opener / responder.

If you are going to go through all this trouble, just play kickback.

Agreed !

[MickyB]

Two ideas that have relevance here, neither of which are mine -

"1430 if you've shown an opening hand or better, otherwise 3041"

"When partner shows three keycards, returning to five-of-the-trump-suit is a queen ask opposite three keycards"

[kenrexford]

FWIW, I think that the solution of playing Kickback is good, albeit incomplete.

In theory, one could improve bidding (if one can handle the complexity) by gaining an understanding of the 1430/3014 "controversy" and applying "fixes" when those fixes become necessary. Although Kickback solves a world of problems in straight-forward sequences, this does not solve all problems.

Consider a few simple examples:

-4♠ is Kickback for hearts, but what if the asking bid is 4NT Exclusion (short spades)?

-What if both majors are in focus, such that the systemic agreement if for 4NT RKCB for hearts and 5♣ RKCB for spades?

-What if you are playing four of the cheapest out-of-focus major as RKCB, hearts are still in focus, diamonds is the "slam strain," and thus 4♠ is RKCB for diamonds?

In other words, the 1430/0314 "controversy" deals with any situation where the RKCB asking bid is game +2 (or more), and that might occur in some sequences even if you play Kickback.

Sure, one rule could be "0314 whenever the RKCB in the sequence is game+1," but then the "Kantar Rules" might kick in whenever the RKCB bid is game+2, for whatever reason. You might even have another set of rules for when RKCB is game+3.