[zheddh]

Assign the blame. You are playing 10 bd IMP team match against strong opponents.

Scoring: IMP

---

(p) - p - (1♣*) - Dbl
(p) - 1♠ - (p) - 3♠
(p) - 4♠

*1♣ is Polish Club

[aguahombre]

south gets the blame...3S sounds like "I heard your zero to 8, bid four with any excuse." North has a fifth spade and a kj combo, so going to four is routine. I think 2S is plenty after the 1S response to the double.

[Cascade]

Whoever dealt you both three small hearts - tripleton I believe.

If either of you had a doubleton then game would be reasonable at these colours.

[the hog]

I am inclined to agree with the above post by the waterman. However there are a number of posters here who will raise to 2S on a decent 14 count. I guess for them 3S is mandatory on this hand. You are a bit unlucky. If any hand only had 2 cards in H you would have a pretty decent play for game.

What would a 1NT overcall have been? If natural, then that would have been my preferred choice.

[P_Marlowe]

Hi,

I think 2S instead of 3S is enough, and I dont really like the 4S.
But all in all, if you have no detailed agreements against Polish
Club, the bidding was fine.

Assuming 1C would have been natural, I think 3S and 4S are both
overbids, because club is their suit, every club honor you have in
clubs is basically wastage, a little bit over simplified.

With kind regards
Marlowe

[P_Marlowe]

aguahombre, on Jul 29 2009, 11:46 PM, said:

south gets the blame...3S sounds like "I heard your zero to 8, bid four with any excuse." North has a fifth spade and a kj combo, so going to four is routine. I think 2S is plenty after the 1S response to the double.

But the KJ combo is in their suit, and partner announced
a club shortage, i.e. the value of your KJ combo declined.

With kind regards
Marlowe

[mike777]

zheddh, on Jul 29 2009, 11:06 PM, said:

Assign the blame. You are playing 10 bd IMP team match against strong opponents.

Scoring: IMP

---

(p) - p - (1♣*) - Dbl
(p) - 1♠ - (p) - 3♠
(p) - 4♠

*1♣ is Polish Club

nonexpert answer

looks like a dead minimum 2s raise...what is 3s?

[EricK]

It's unlucky really. You might say that 3♠ is an overbid, but give south ♦AKQJ and you still have 4 top losers! You might also say that North should devalue his ♣KJ. But they actually turn out to be good cards (as is probably frequently the case when the 1♣ bid is Polish)! Swap South's red suits, and we might, under slightly different circumstance, have got an "ATB for missing game" thread.

[zheddh]

The_Hog, on Jul 30 2009, 01:06 AM, said:

What would a 1NT overcall have been? If natural, then that would have been my preferred choice.

Yes, 1NT is natural for us. But why do you like 1NT? We have two open suits and one of them was bid by the opponent (presumably)

[P_Marlowe]

zheddh, on Jul 30 2009, 02:18 AM, said:

The_Hog, on Jul 30 2009, 01:06 AM, said:

What would a 1NT overcall have been? If natural, then that would have been my preferred choice.

Yes, 1NT is natural for us. But why do you like 1NT? We have two open suits and one of them was bid by the opponent (presumably)

Since 1C was polish, the most likely distribution for opener
is a weak NT, and a natural 1NT showes the shape and the
strength.
Qx will act as a partial stopper, lots of holdings will make
sure you have a full stopper.

After 1NT you will have a well defined system av., I suppose
you play system on, i.e. you are well placed to reach the
right contract / the right level.

With kind regards
Marlowe

[gwnn]

Nah I prefer 'ATB for missing game' threads, dont worry about it.

If jdonn were still posting he'd note that in competitive auctions sometimes both of you are minimum for your range and you get too high and that doesn't mean you have to underbid from now on.

edit: here is one thread about rebids after a t/o doubles (jdonn would disapprove of 3H but almost all others approve it)

http://forums.bridge...showtopic=32319

[dicklont]

Normally 2♠ would be plenty to show this hand, after 3♠ North's shape and extra trump are good enough to try the game.

Following the "Jdonn link" I see that he explains that requirements for the (jump) raise have lowered in the last year or so, so I guess 2♠ is a bit old-fashioned now.
When this approach is agreed North must pass.

[mich-b]

I think the South hand is a very normal 2♠ raise. 3♠ is a serious overbid.

Some posters have said that it could be a good game , and unlucky to go down. This is only because North is probably worth a bid over South's 2♠.
My point : 2♠ is a seriously good hand, not just "I happen to have 4 card support".

[pooltuna]

100% South, who overvalued his hand. Treat the ♣Qx like the waste paper it rates to be and you will come up with the more adequate 2♠ bid. Some people may feel this shows a minimum hand in this auction but that is just wrong since the minimum action is pass. You need to remember partner may have bid 1♠ with xxx xxxx xxx xxx.

[aguahombre]

in further defense of North, the KJXX of clubs is not necessarily in "their suit", due to the random nature of the Polish club. That is not a disparaging remark about the system, just pointing out that Clubs might not be a significant part of opener's hand. It also means that South's QX of clubs is not necessarily total trash, but just a normal subtractor in hand eval. This doesn't change the opinion that South overbid, and North made a reasonable decision.

[Phil]

This problem pops up every year or two.

The theme is "what do we need to make a non-competitive raise of partner's response to a TOx". A few argue that the subject hand is a 3♠ call, but others (including Josh and myself) believe 2♠ shows this hand type. I have not changed my mind one iota on this matter, so I would give South 100% of the blame here.

Maybe one of our resident historians can find one of the threads.

[gwnn]

maybe...