[kgr]

Opps open 1NT and you DBL that. (standard, showing strength).
Then opps run to a suit.
How do you play a 2nd DBL: takeout, penalty, optional (eg 4 card)?
====examples=====
Actual bidding:
(1NT)-DBL-(2C!)-Pass
(2D)-DBL??
 
1NT was weak NT
DBL was minimum 14 pts.
2C=transfer to D.
===============
(1NT)-DBL-(2X)-Pass
(Pass)-DBL??
===============
(1NT)-DBL-(Pass)-Pass
(2X)-DBL??

[ochinko]

I hate to double 1NT when all I have is points. With these 18 I won't double:

AQx
KJx
AJx
Kxxx

I prefer to have a plan for setting opps. Like these 14 (provided I 'm on the lead):

Ax
KQJ10xx
Ax
xxx

So if don't bid my own suit after opps run, but double a second time this could only mean that I really have a balanced hand with all the missing points.

[wclass___]

all doubles for t/o or a lot of points.

[pooltuna]

basically all of the 2nd doubles express an opinion that the opponents made a mistake.

[cRi cRi]

I asked this specific question (against the weak no trump) to Boye broegland A month ago, he plays :

Dbl is penalty and pass is forcing.

It can be very dangerous to pass forcing, but he lives with it. And I like this way.
Most of the time when people run from 1ntX you will not go down a lot playing a partscore.

[Phil]

I used to play it as penalty, but I think takeout (and a forcing pass) works a lot better.

Thanks to my gnomee for this.

[helene_t]

For some reason, most people seem to play these dbls as penalty. Maybe because of a meta-agreement that after we have made a penalty dbl, all subsequent dbls are penalty. Maybe because opps are prone to psyching. (bidding a natural 2!c with 4=4=4=1 may technically not be a psyche but that's the kind of things you want to dbl for penalties).

Or maybe I am just delusional. But I think it should be t/o.

[peachy]

helene_t, on Jul 29 2009, 10:53 AM, said:

For some reason, most people seem to play these dbls as penalty. Maybe because of a meta-agreement that after we have made a penalty dbl, all subsequent dbls are penalty. Maybe because opps are prone to psyching. (bidding a natural 2!c with 4=4=4=1 may technically not be a psyche but that's the kind of things you want to dbl for penalties).

Or maybe I am just delusional. But I think it should be t/o.

I agree with the principle that after we have made a penalty Dbl the subsequent doubles are penalty. The "sand in the wheels" in the OP case is that the first double was not penalty; he called it Standard (which it is not) and showing strength.

[Free]

After a Dbl showing length, a 2nd double shows points, takeout oriented.

After a penalty Dbl, I prefer 2-3-doubles although it's far from standard.

[Cascade]

After a general strength showing double we play:

2nd Dbl = takeout

3rd Dbl = penalty unless the opponents have bid and raised a suit (and on some auctions where the 2nd double was of an artificial bid)

[nigel_k]

I play it as takeout. You can still get them for penalties and it works better on the other hands.

If it's a strong NT and/or opponents are honest there is no need for a forcing pass. But there is a risk of them running tactically to their short suit. Then neither player has a takeout double and you assume partner must be very weak as they are short but didn't double.

In general, a value showing double does not make subsequent doubles penalty. If we double a suit for takeout and they bid a different suit, then doubles are penalty.

[effervesce]

One of the problems I think with playing it as takeout is if the opps psyche their short suit after 1NT - (X).

Eg, with x QJT987 xxx xxx opposite a weak NT, its pretty likely the opps have game in spades. After 1NT - (X) - 2S, playing takeout doubles makes things pretty interesting...

A more practical example is after 1NT - (X) - 2C, which many would bid on 2 clubs and a balanced hand. Playing takeout doubles you're less likely to nail them.

[the hog]

2nd x = penalty.

[effervesce]

ochinko, on Jul 29 2009, 07:32 AM, said:

I hate to double 1NT when all I have is points. With these 18 I won't double:

AQx
KJx
AJx
Kxxx

I prefer to have a plan for setting opps. Like these 14 (provided I 'm on the lead):

Ax
KQJ10xx
Ax
xxx

So if don't bid my own suit after opps run, but double a second time this could only mean that I really have a balanced hand with all the missing points. 

I'd love to play a weak NT system against opps who pass 18 counts after a 1NT opening.

[ochinko]

effervesce, on Jul 30 2009, 01:11 PM, said:

I'd love to play a weak NT system against opps who pass 18 counts after a 1NT opening.

First time I saw someone not doubling the declarer with more points than him it stroke me as odd too. Then I started observing what happens in those cases, and it turned out that it really isn't a winning habit. Funny thing is, doublers don't care when it doesn't work, they just brush it off as they think they did the right thing just because everyone they know does the same.

[wclass___]

Question for those who play 2nd double as penalty.

What do you do with hands that would normally double for takeout?

IMO
There is no good way to bid these hands if you use those doubles as penalty. Using it as penalty is just inability to diagnose priorites.
If you really have a penalty double, partner will double for takeout anyway.
Vulnerable opponents doun't psyche much.
And NV opponents run away.

[gwnn]

At the risk of not making any intelligent posts in the past year except quoting other threads, I'd like to mention that it's not quite as simple as some posters here make it. At the simplest level the argument would be "if you double for penalties, you can pass or takeout", but that's not strictly true. Anyway, you can read this thread (except the part about "pretend partner opened 1NT and system on")

http://forums.bridge...showtopic=27718

[effervesce]

ochinko, on Jul 30 2009, 08:38 AM, said:

effervesce, on Jul 30 2009, 01:11 PM, said:

I'd love to play a weak NT system against opps who pass 18 counts after a 1NT opening.

First time I saw someone not doubling the declarer with more points than him it stroke me as odd too. Then I started observing what happens in those cases, and it turned out that it really isn't a winning habit. Funny thing is, doublers don't care when it doesn't work, they just brush it off as they think they did the right thing just because everyone they know does the same.

From my experience playing a 11-13 1NT, a penalty X is an essential part of defensive bidding against it.

The gains from the weak NT stem from a preemptive effect on the opponents when its their hand. The main loss from the weak NT is when you go for a number. Without a penalty X, this main problem playing a weak NT vulnerable is removed and thus makes playing a weak NT much more attractive.

I've had more than a few hands go 1NT - (all pass) when the opps are cold for game. Without a penalty X with strong balanced hands, how will the +200 from NV weak NT openers compensate for your cold vulnerable game? Partner's not likely to bid with a balanced hand with 12 pts or less or so...

A penalty double is I think essential against a weak NT. Without it, your bids have a much less defined upper limit, and lets your opponents get away with murder.

[helene_t]

I am with Ochinko. 18 points may be a little extreme but in my experience, passing with strong balanced hands works better against 12-14. It may be different against even weaker 1NT openings. I wouldn't know.