[PassedOut]

I'm plenty old enough to remember sitting around the TV with my brothers and sisters watching the first moon landing 40 years ago. My grandfather, who remembered very clearly the day that he read about the Wright brothers' first flight, sat with us and talked about the many exciting things he had witnessed during his lifetime.

At that time we fully expected that the US would pull together with the rest of the world to explore space. We were sure we couldn't even imagine all the wonderful expeditions that would be undertaken in the next 20, 30, or 40 years (another humbling demonstration of how little I know).

Given that you can always find some people to dispute the most obvious facts, I was nevertheless surprised to read that 6% in the US actually believe that the moon landings were faked: Vocal Minority Insists It Was All Smoke and Mirrors

Quote

They walk among us, seemingly little different from you or me. Most of the time, you would never know of their true nature — except that occasionally, they feel compelled to speak up.

Take an example from Lens, this newspaper’s photography blog. A recent feature,“ Dateline: Space,” displayed stunning NASA photographs, including the iconic photo of Buzz Aldrin standing on the lunar surface.

The second comment on the feature stated flatly, “Man never got to the moon.”

The author of the post, Nicolas Marino, went on to say, “I think media should stop publicizing something that was a complete sham once and for all and start documenting how they lied blatantly to the whole world.”

I have to agree with Harrison Schmitt's observation of these people:

Quote

Harrison Schmitt, the pilot of the lunar lander during the last Apollo mission and later a United States senator, said in an interview that the poor state of the nation’s schools has had predictable results. “If people decide they’re going to deny the facts of history and the facts of science and technology, there’s not much you can do with them,” he said.

“For most of them, I just feel sorry that we failed in their education.”

And I feel the same way about those poor lost souls who shut their eyes to global warming, about those who fight the teaching of evolution, and about those who drum it into their kids that the world is 6000 years old. We've simply got to get a better handle on educating people.

[kenberg]

A somewhat faded memory: When the Russians accomplished some feat or another, I think it was Yuri whoever leaving his capsule to float in space, there was an expose in, I think, American Mercury magazine showing how it all was faked.

Otoh, my yoga instructor goes to fairie festivals.

We all need a break from reality now and then.

[Aberlour10]

I don't waste my time with following to various conspiracy theories normally, but I must say this one about Kubrick's staging was very entertaining.

Robert

[Fluffy]

PassedOut, on Jul 14 2009, 07:25 PM, said:

Given that you can always find some people to dispute the most obvious facts, I was nevertheless surprised to read that 6% in the US actually believe that the moon landings were faked

The % its much higher outside US. I have heard a lot of arguments that support the fake, but I recently met an astronomer who just told me that with a good enough telescope you can actually what the lunar vehicle that they left there, that kinda settles all arguments.

[bid_em_up]

Fluffy, on Jul 14 2009, 08:55 PM, said:

I have heard a lot of arguments that support the fake, but I recently met an astronomer who just told me that with a good enough telescope you can actually what the lunar vehicle that they left there, that kinda settles all arguments.

There is only one problem with this claim. The telescope that would be good enough to be able to see the lunar vehicles doesn't exist.

This claim of "proof" is just as bad as the claims of it being a hoax. (Sorry)

http://calgary.rasc.ca/moonscope.htm

Edit: To be fair, Apollo missions 11, 14, and 15 did leave something on the moon called a corner reflector, which allows the distance from Earth to the moon to be calculated by sending a laser pulse from a telescope to the moon which is then reflected directly back to its point of origin. Maybe this is what he was referring to.

http://science.nasa....4/21jul_llr.htm

[barmar]

But who other than NASA and their university conspirators has a laser powerful enough to send to the moon and detect the reflection? If they faked the landing, they've obviously faked the laser results since then.

To the OP, I don't think conspiracy theories like this are a failing of education. Kooks will believe whatever they want to believe, regardless of what schools teach. When the moon landing happened, practically every school in the country, and many around the world, had TVs tuned to it. That didn't stop people from claiming it was all a hoax.

These types of people generally distrust authorities, so they're naturally inclined to believe that something complicated is fake.

[Fluffy]

There is also another absurd conspiracy I have heard, some people seem to claim that the son of god didn't come to earth 2000 years ago lol.

[Al_U_Card]

Fluffy, on Jul 16 2009, 01:22 AM, said:

There is also another absurd conspiracy I have heard, some people seem to claim that the son of god didn't come to hearth 2000 years ago lol.

Oh He came here alright......but then he looked around, saw what was going on and....took off!

[barmar]

Al_U_Card, on Jul 16 2009, 08:11 AM, said:

Fluffy, on Jul 16 2009, 01:22 AM, said:

There is also another absurd conspiracy I have heard, some people seem to claim that the son of god didn't come to hearth 2000 years ago lol.

Oh He came here alright......but then he looked around, saw what was going on and....took off!

But he forgot something and came back 3 days later to get it. And he said he'll be back again one some day.

[luke warm]

barmar, on Jul 16 2009, 03:39 PM, said:

Al_U_Card, on Jul 16 2009, 08:11 AM, said:

Fluffy, on Jul 16 2009, 01:22 AM, said:

There is also another absurd conspiracy I have heard, some people seem to claim that the son of god didn't come to hearth 2000 years ago lol.

Oh He came here alright......but then he looked around, saw what was going on and....took off!

But he forgot something and came back 3 days later to get it. And he said he'll be back again one some day.

and so he will

[mink]

he already is back - I saw him playing in bbo, and his name was "Son of God"

[vuroth]

barmar, on Jul 15 2009, 05:50 PM, said:

But who other than NASA and their university conspirators has a laser powerful enough to send to the moon and detect the reflection? If they faked the landing, they've obviously faked the laser results since then.

To the OP, I don't think conspiracy theories like this are a failing of education. Kooks will believe whatever they want to believe, regardless of what schools teach. When the moon landing happened, practically every school in the country, and many around the world, had TVs tuned to it. That didn't stop people from claiming it was all a hoax.

These types of people generally distrust authorities, so they're naturally inclined to believe that something complicated is fake.

The reason that I think it DOES show a failing of eduction is that, at the surface, science would seem to ask you to drink the kool-aid, same as everyone else. If you have the education and drive to look deeper, though, you'll see that the scientific arguments dovetail, while the conspiracy theories tend to crack.

Anyone who blindly trusts science, "the establishment" or the conspiracy theories do themselves a profound disservice. In this day and age, knowledge just isn't that difficult to come by.

[barmar]

I think it's the "drive to look deeper" that's important, not the education, and that's more of an individual attribute. But maybe you're saying that a good educational system will foster that drive.

Disbelievers in the moon landing are a fringe element. It's not like more mainstream beliefs like religion, which result from a concerted effort to teach them. I also don't think it's even as common as other supernatural beliefs, like astrology and ESP, which could perhaps be viewed as a consequence of poor education.

[kenberg]

Concerning trust, education and knowledge.

It seems clear to me that much of knowledge is based on trust. I don't want to revisit the perennial debate about evolution except to note that my acceptance of it is based almost entirely on trust. Not trust of any particular person but trust of the scientific process. I don't expect scientists to always be right or even to always be unbiased but I believe the general scientific approach is set up to uncover error. This can sometimes go off track when the issues are emotional, but it then rights itself.

Education in science would be better, I think, if this self-correcting mechanism received greater emphasis, including a plentiful supply of historical examples. Often students are taught (or so I recall and I doubt it has changed all that much) something like: Scientists say blah blah blah, remember these facts and figures and recite them back on the exam. The scientific facts may well be worth learning, they probably are, but the really distinguishing feature of science is its emphasis on constantly checking back and discarding or revising when needed. The successful implementation of scientific theory to produce a myriad of technology presumably makes a strong case for the effectiveness of this approach, although I prefer to regard truth for truth's sake as the strongest argument.


Probably none of this would help in the case of those who think the moon landing was faked or the holocaust was faked or such things. I have a friend who insists the case for smoking causing cancer is not yet proven. What can you say?

[PassedOut]

kenberg, on Jul 21 2009, 07:28 AM, said:

Not trust of any particular person but trust of the scientific process. I don't expect scientists to always be right or even to always be unbiased but I believe the general scientific approach is set up to uncover error. This can sometimes go off track when the issues are emotional, but it then rights itself.

Education in science would be better, I think, if this self-correcting mechanism received greater emphasis, including a plentiful supply of historical examples.

Agree completely.

The folks who believe the moon landing to be fake don't accept a thing simply because some authority figure says it's true, but they lack the tools to make a good decision for themselves. I think the schools should make sure their students understand that the scientific method provides by far the best technique for evaluating competing claims, and exactly why that is.

[vuroth]

I have to agree completely with kenberg. Science class should teach the scientific process, or at least more strongly emphasize it.

One of the key features that separates science from dogma is that it is generally acceptable in science to question existing ideas and theories. New evidence WILL change prevailing scientific thought - it happens all the time.

[vuroth]

Just saw this - apparently LRO has some photos of the landing sites.

http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastro...-imaged-by-lro/

[barmar]

Those pictures are clearly Photoshopped, they'll have to do more than that to convince me.