[jillybean]

Are nfb's played at the 1 lvl or usualy only at the 2level?

1♣ (1♦) X both 4CM or forcing?
1♣ (1♦) 1♥ nfb or forcing?
1♣ (2♦) 2♥ nfb
1♣ (2♦) X forcing

[zheddh]

I like to play them at the 2 level specifically. New suits at the first and third level are forcing in my partnership. The reason you don't need NFBs at the first level is that you need much less strength for a forcing response at the 1 level.

http://members.shaw....entions/nfb.htm - This page provides good information on NFBs.

[Jlall]

Definitely don't play them at the 1 level.

[helene_t]

Certainly not at the 1-level. There is no reason to do that.

At the 3-level it's a matter of agreement.
1♠-(2♥)-3m
If 3m is nonforcing, you need to bid opps' suit with a stronger hand, since it's impractical to jump to 4m when we likely belong in 3NT. OTOH if 3m is forcing you will be stuck with 8-10 points and long clubs.

It is probably technically best to play
1♣-(2♦)-2M
as forcing if 2♦ is weak and as NF if 2♦ is intermediate. Then again, having such agreements create problems when the explanation of 2♦ is something like "I don't remember" or "8-13".

[P_Marlowe]

Hi,

A common agreement is to play NFB on even level (2 or 4),
and not to play in on od level (1 or 3).

We did play it on 2,3 and 4, it works reasonably well, but ...

On the 1 level, well for a NFB you need a good suit and 5-6 cards,
this means at leastt 5-6HCP, if youthink about it, that is also the
same you need for a forcing bid, NFB does not mean garbage

With kind regards
Uwe Gebhardt

[Cascade]

I play Negative Free Bids at the two and three level.

They work well.

[jillybean]

Thanks, so playing at the 2and3level is 1♣ (1♠) 2♥ a nfb or forcing?

[P_Marlowe]

jillybean2, on Jul 15 2009, 10:52 AM, said:

Thanks, so playing at the 2and3level is 1♣ (1♠) 2♥ a nfb or forcing?

well if you play NFBs at the 2 and 3 level, 2H in the seq.

1C - (1S) - 2H - ...

is nonforcing, 2H is a suit bid on the 2 level.

But in NA NFBs are certainly not standard.

With kind regards
Marlowe

[jillybean]

Next question;

1x (2y) 2z

1x (2y) 3z

How much do you need to make a nfb to the 2 and 3 level, 5-11 n/v 8-11 v?

[ArtK78]

Why are negative free bids being discussed in a Beginner and Intermediate Bridge Discussion? It seems to me that this topic is not appropriate for this Forum.

[jillybean]

ArtK78, on Jul 22 2009, 01:17 PM, said:

Why are negative free bids being discussed in a Beginner and Intermediate Bridge Discussion?  It seems to me that this topic is not appropriate for this Forum.

Shall I move it to the WC?

I dont think it matters where the question is posted but people like to see more complex questions posted to the Advanced formums. This isnt an advanced topic, Im just asking the basics of NFB's

[mikeh]

I would suggest the general bridge forum. I do agree that nfb's are not B/I issues...


Very few players, viewed as a percentage of NA players, use NFBs. While those who do seem to like them a lot, many of those who don't will have tried them and found them to be not worth the cost. I am one of those... I played nfbs for a short while some years ago and found that while they can be very useful, they suffered from two major flaws.

1) few partners want to play them. That isn't an issue if you want to form a steady partnership with someone who does want to play them, but is a detriment if you play with many partners

2) more importantly, to me, the cost of using them is high. Whether it is unacceptably high, as I see it to be, or acceptable as, for example, Wayne sees it, is a matter of personal opinion. But all too often I see people latching onto conventions because all they think about are the advantages. Thus most books or articles touting methods give you reams of examples where the method works. For me, the mark of a good book/article on a gadget is that is shows almost as many hands on which the gadget fares poorly. So: consider the enormous burden you create when responder has a good hand.... he has to start with either a cuebid or a negative double. Making the cue bid do service other than as a raise is horrible, due to the ensuing ambiguities in the auction. And making the negative double now serve not only for many of the hands for which it is ordinarily used but also for hands that used to bid naturally, and forcing, is horrific. Obviously, this is only my opinion, and some very good players differ

My view: nfbs win more frequently than they lose, but they tend to lose big when they are wrong. If I were playing only BAM or mps, I'd probably play them.

I hope that by reading this description of the issues, condensed tho it is, you'll appreciate why the topic of nfb may be wrong in this forum.

[P_Marlowe]

jillybean2, on Jul 22 2009, 01:27 PM, said:

Next question;

1x (2y) 2z

1x (2y) 3z

How much do you need to make a nfb to the 2 and 3 level, 5-11 n/v  8-11 v?

2 level 6/7-11, 3 level 8-11.

Vulnerability does not play a big role.
The reason for the later is, that your p opened the bidding.
The most likely scenario is, that he is the richest guy on the
table, so it is more important to be constructive than to be
able to preempt.
And if you are constructive, you will also keep the opponents
in check.

Added: If you play NFB constructive, you will fairly fast find out,
that it does not really make a difference, if you play NFB or not,
because most of the time you will just bid your suit.
In case you may play forcing, this means you have to stretch
sometimes.
This assumes, that you play a new suit on the 2 level only as a 1
round force, which seems to be standard, even in NA.

With kind regards
Marlowe

[Quantumcat]

The biggest problem with negative freebids is when the opponents pre-empt, you doubled to show a constructive hand and you haven't even begun to show your hand. Especially if you have support.

There is something that solves this problem, AND lets you make negative freebids: transfers after interference of your 1-suit opening. Then if you have a weak hand, you transfer to your long suit and pass (opener only rejects if he has a reverse-worthy hand that could still make game after a weak bid, or a non-strong hand with like a void in responder's suit and is absolutely determined to play in one of their suits even opposite a very weak hand with hardly anything but their own suit) and continue bidding if you have a constructive hand. If you are not really weak or particularly constructive, you pass and hope partner has a takeout double. (Like you would do if you didn't play negative freebids or transfers.)

For example:

1D 2C ?

You have xxx, Axxxxx, xxx, x You'd love to play in 2 hearts but you can't bid it. you pass praying for a dodgy takeout double but opener passes. They then make 2C when you can make 3H (or else they can make 3C and you can make 2H). Solution? Bid 2D, transfer, and pass 2H. If they bid 3C after your pass, you can bid 3H without worrying about your partner bidding again. In addition, if you are a passed hand and your partner is on the lower end of weak, has 6 or more diamonds and one or no hearts, he can pass 2D.

If you have an invitational hand with support and a pretty suit of your own, you might make a fit-showing jump or have to satisfy yourself with a plain cueraise. But not needed with transfers:

Say you have Jxx AKJxx x xxxx and the bidding goes 1S 2D ? You double showing hearts, then bid 2S. This shows a nice heart suit with spade support and invitational. If you have instead, Axxx KQxxx x xxx, you bid 2H showing spades, then bid 3H. This says the same thing, except your spades are more interesting than your hearts. If you just have a plain cueraise, say Kxxx Axxx Axx xx, you bid 3C transfer to 3D: cueraise. Opener accepts or rejects with 3S or 4S, otherwise he cues. Except now he can cue their suit one level lower than he would otherwise have to do.

You have to decide where to play them to: either to 3S (transfer to 3NT) so that 3NT is to play (this is useful: if you have lots of queens you probably want to play it) or else only to one below a jump raise of your suit, so the jump raise is as pre-emptive as possible.

Whatever you agree though it has loads of advantages!

[jillybean]

Thanks for the detailed post. These transfers would be too much burden on my memory cells at the moment, but good to know if in the future I have some to spare

[peachy]

"Negative Free Bids" is a nfb if in "Standard" the bid would show 10+ HCP or so. This is a simplified statement, but works to help understand when a bid is nfb. It does not apply on the 1-level.