[zheddh]

Hi guys,

What do you suggest should the following double be? white vs red if it matters in MPs.

1♠ - p - 2♠ - DBL
p - 3♦ - DBL

Does it matter is 1♠ if precision style? 2♠ is a constructive raise

[mtvesuvius]

Penalty. Nothing else even remotely makes sense.

[ArtK78]

Agree.

I had a funny one the other day. I was playing in a Regional Swiss with a friend who I had not played with in perhaps 15 or 20 years. We were put together as a team on short notice, so we slapped together a very basic convention card. One of the points he made was that he does not play support doubles.

I picked up:

x
QTx
QJTxxx
xxx

Partner opened 1♣ and RHO doubled. I bid 1♦ and LHO bid 1♠. My partner doubled. Now, I have always wondered whether there are support doubles of diamonds in this auction, but I had nothing to wonder about here - we were not playing support doubles. I suspected one of two things - either a penalty double of 1♠ or a takeout double. Given that this partner started playing in the early 1960's, I suspected a penalty double.

However, I didn't have to worry about it - my RHO raised to 2♠! They played it there making. My partner did mean his double of 1♠ for penalties. He had a 19 count with KQ9x of spades. After the spade raise and pass by me, he reconsidered his position at the one level and passed out 2♠.

[Phil]

Its penalty-oriented. I don't expect it to get pulled very often with opener passing the 1st x.

[jjbrr]

Doubles after auctions like 1♠ p 2♠ are often very aggressive (pre-balancing) and can contain less than ideal distributions (maybe 2425, even). Double of 3♦ should be penalty.

[Jlall]

balanced max. Hxx of clubs typical. I had this auction against Fred and Brad in the cavendish:

1S p 2S X
p 3C X p
3D p 4S

just made.

[Cascade]

We play doubles sitting over the primary bidder as pure penalty and sitting under the primary bidder as sharp balanced maximums.

When there has been a takeout double the sharp maximums apply from both sides since we don't really know who the primary bidder is (or if there is one 4-4 fit).

[jdonn]

I had a very good partner who thought this should be a max with convertible values (top tricks). I was never convinced he was right, but just pointing out there is an alternative viewpoint to 'penalty' that makes sense.

[skjaeran]

Prefer this to show a balanced max with some defensive values.

[P_Marlowe]

Suggestion to go for blood, should be based on a max. hand
for 2S with defensive values.
The precision context does not matter, since the auction will also
occurr in a 2/1 system.

With kind regards
Marlowe

[jmcw]

I thought penalty DBL's in this context had become passe.

[peachy]

I prefer balanced max 3-card raise and ability to defend 3DX if partner leaves it in. Have actually discussed it with favorite partners. On a scale from 0=takeout to 10=penalty, this rates around 8 or 9.

[zheddh]

Thank you for your responses. I realize it isn't much important how you play it, but more important that you and partner are on page.

Now, there could possibly be huge number of auctions where a double could be ambiguous. Is there a list of them somewhere so that I can discuss them with my partner?

[helene_t]

In general, the purpose of the t/o double is to uncover a fit, so when we have found a fit dbl has a different meaning. Standard is penalties although it's fine to make different agreements with p. You can also play it as "I have both extra offense and extra defense, you chose" or "I have mainly extra offense but just in case your hand is very defense-oriented".

One exception:
1♥-(p)-2♥-(3♦)
dbl*
Here most play 3♥ as purely competitive, so the only call available to show an invite is dbl. This dbl will rarely be left in. OTOH if opp had overcalled 3♣, we can use 3♦ as the generic invite, and dbl is penalties.

[peachy]

helene_t, on Jul 14 2009, 04:08 AM, said:

In general, the purpose of the t/o double is to uncover a fit, so when we have found a fit dbl has a different meaning. Standard is penalties although it's fine to make different agreements with p. You can also play it as "I have both extra offense and extra defense, you chose" or "I have mainly extra offense but just in case your hand is very defense-oriented".

One exception:
1♥-(p)-2♥-(3♦)
dbl*
Here most play 3♥ as purely competitive, so the only call available to show an invite is dbl. This dbl will rarely be left in. OTOH if opp had overcalled 3♣, we can use 3♦ as the generic invite, and dbl is penalties.

This double has a name: Maximal Overcall Dbl and in an ACBL convention card it has its own checkbox. It is used when opponent overcalls on the three-level thus taking away opener's game invite below our trump suit. Since it does have a known name, I think it is better to call a spade "a spade".

[gnasher]

peachy, on Jul 14 2009, 07:10 PM, said:

This double has a name: Maximal Overcall Dbl and in an ACBL convention card it has its own checkbox.  It is used when opponent overcalls on the three-level thus taking away opener's game invite below our trump suit.  Since it does have a known name, I think it is better to call a spade "a spade".

Yes, but only if it is, in fact, a spade. Doesn't the term "Maximal Overcall Double" refer to a double by an unlimited hand, showing a game try? For example:
  1♠ pass 2♠ 3♦
  dbl
Whatever the double in the original post shows, it certainly isn't a game try.

[cherdanno]

gnasher, on Jul 14 2009, 01:40 PM, said:

peachy, on Jul 14 2009, 07:10 PM, said:

This double has a name: Maximal Overcall Dbl and in an ACBL convention card it has its own checkbox.  It is used when opponent overcalls on the three-level thus taking away opener's game invite below our trump suit.  Since it does have a known name, I think it is better to call a spade "a spade".

Yes, but only if it is, in fact, a spade. Doesn't the term "Maximal Overcall Double" refer to a double by an unlimited hand, showing a game try? For example:
  1♠ pass 2♠ 3♦
  dbl
Whatever the double in the original post shows, it certainly isn't a game try.

Hey Andy, need some coffee? (Peachy was referring to the auction in Helene's post, not in the original post.)

[peachy]

cherdanno, on Jul 14 2009, 02:32 PM, said:

gnasher, on Jul 14 2009, 01:40 PM, said:

peachy, on Jul 14 2009, 07:10 PM, said:

This double has a name: Maximal Overcall Dbl and in an ACBL convention card it has its own checkbox.  It is used when opponent overcalls on the three-level thus taking away opener's game invite below our trump suit.   Since it does have a known name, I think it is better to call a spade "a spade".

Yes, but only if it is, in fact, a spade. Doesn't the term "Maximal Overcall Double" refer to a double by an unlimited hand, showing a game try? For example:
  1♠ pass 2♠ 3♦
  dbl
Whatever the double in the original post shows, it certainly isn't a game try.

Hey Andy, need some coffee? (Peachy was referring to the auction in Helene's post, not in the original post.)

Yes, I was. Sorry that I snipped too much and lost the context.

[gnasher]

Sorry. I don't know why I got involved in a discussion of American nomenclature anyway.

By the way, it's more beer-time than coffee-time here.