[Fluffy]

I cannot sleep tonight, thinking about about bridge I realiced the following:

after blackwood, I think it is standard to bid next step as trump queen ask, and 6x for specific ask about that suit, 5NT nowadays is specific king ask I think.

Well. What if you do have the queen of trumps and ask about it?, partner is gonna show a negative* and, if the negative happens at the 5 level, you have a bunch of new specific asks at the 6 levels (5NT included, 5♠ sometimes).

Further more, if you don't ask about the queen, and you have it, you can (almost) safely state that your 6x bids are different than the 6x bids after the relay.


It is true that the most common use of 6x bid after a negative about queen of trumps is: I wanna play in this suit because we don't miss trump queen here.

But sometimes it is very obvious that this is not the case.

Further more, after a 5♠/♥ negative, what is 5NT?, having 5NT as pick a slam, and 6x as to play sounds like (almost) 2 ways of biddin the same.

5NT as specific queen ask might work pretty well.

With a spade fit, and 2 ways of 6 clubs asking you could ask about from ♣KQ to ♣J.

Asking directly would mean I need a lot of help (KQ is 7, K is second step, QJ first, rest negative)
Asking indirectly would mean I need slight help (I have the King), QJ is 7, Q second step, J or doubleton is first (second step asks)


One more twist, your asking bids are always on A: your secondary suit (2 suiter), partner's primary suit (if he supported you). So using clubs as asking about A and diamonds about B sounds like another improvement for extra space.

Ok gonna sleep now, will come tomorrow and see if this still makes sense or is just a piece of trash .

[ONEferBRID]

I think you have something here.
At times I've wanted the "first" K-ask REPLIES to be that for the "second" K-ask.
You could do that with your suggestion of the "false" trump Q-ask ( only when you have the Q -- or when you know you have have at least a 10 card fit ).

[dake50]

Do your asks much lower, even reserve some jump-shift for key ask.

[Fluffy]

dake50, on Jul 14 2009, 03:50 AM, said:

Do your asks much lower, even reserve some jump-shift for key ask.

Opponents can preempt your relays at the 3 level, but have a hard time doing so at slam level.

[ONEferBRID]

Specific Q-ask ( with QJ reply option) presently exists without the need for a "false" trump Q-ask.
The following is taken from an amalgamation of Eddie Kantar ( the RKC Guru ) systems and the Washington Standard by Steve Robinson:

After any 5-level reply ( to the 4NT-RKC ask ), if you by-pass the specific K-ask ( 5NT) and go directly to the 6-level in a suit below 6-trump, you are asking about 3rd Round Control:
The replies are:

6 trump = no third round control
7 trump = doubleton
6N = Q
7-ask = QJ

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
And for those unfamiliar with the "second (specific) K-ask" that I mentioned in post #2, it is as follows:

Let's say Spades are trump

Note: On the first K-ask, the replier either makes the cheapest level bid of the outside K that he has ( say 6C = Cl K ) or 6-trump (6S) = no outside Kings.

When there is space for a 2nd K-ask ( say 6D after the 6C reply to the 1st K-ask) the replies are as follows:

6-trump ( 6S ) = no king or singleton
7-trump ( 7S ) = singleton
6N = King
7-ask (7D ) = KQ ( of Diam )

More: If there is "space" below 6-trump in a new suit with an unaccounted K,
then that 6-suit reply = no to "asked for" K but have "this suit K".

And 7-new suit ( 7H ) = yes ( DK) + this K too ( HK)
where 7-new suit is below 7-trump ( 7S ).

[benlessard]

Quote

Do your asks much lower, even reserve some jump-shift for key ask.

Quote

Opponents can preempt your relays at the 3 level, but have a hard time doing so at slam level.

In practice it never happen, either they preempt in first round of bidding or they pass all the way. The best way to bid a slam is to keycard at the lowest level as possible. I strongly believe in keycarding before cuebidding but even if you cuebid you should ask for keycard the lowest bid possible. Totally obvious.

[kenrexford]

A couple of thoughts:

1. I am very sorry for any part I may have played in causing this sort of insane depth of slam-bidding analysis. Truly.

2. That said, interesting idea. However, one concern is that a "queen ask" sometimes is used with the expectation that partner might show the Queen because of extra length, to check on whether partner has extra length. You might want to keep that possibility in mind.

3. You may also want to keep in mind the possible rules as to exceptions that might frequently occur, such as when one suit is a possible alternative strain or when the asking bid happens to be in the non-trump suit (if you ever do that).