[the hog]

Jilly, partner's 2NT bid certainly odes not deny a 4 card Major - well not for me anyway. What would you rather show..C and an 18-19 count or 3+C and 4S and 12-20?
By the way, for me, 3D would certainly be foecing, but as i said, I am looking for a S fit.

[kgr]

For me:
1♣-1♦-2NT is a balanced hand and 18-19 HCP.
1♣-1♦-2♠ shows a 5-4 (unbalanced). Therefor the first bidding does not deny a 4-card Major.
Any bid after the 2NT is GF. (I even play that 2NT is GF, but this can be passed with a sub-minimum).
I think that most of the above is standard?
I play transfers after 2NT jump and would bid 3♣ here. Without transfers I bid 3♠.

[jillybean]

Here's the full hand:

AQ3 A2 JT AK6542

KT62 98 KQ6543 Q

The bidding went 1♣:1♦ 2N:3N for a horrible 3N contract, 6♦ makes.
I often escape to 3N when it may not be the best contract. Good lesson for me here and something else to discuss with P's.

[Phil]

jillybean2, on Jul 11 2009, 11:23 AM, said:

Here's the full hand:

AQ3 A2 JT AK6542

KT62 98 KQ6543 Q

The bidding went 1♣:1♦ 2N:3N for a horrible 3N contract, 6♦ makes.
I often escape to 3N when it may not be the best contract. Good lesson for me here and something else to discuss with P's.

I don't think Opener will keep it in 3N with that heart holding after 3♠, but its an awkward hand.

[Mbodell]

jillybean2, on Jul 11 2009, 08:23 AM, said:

Here's the full hand:

AQ3 A2 JT AK6542

KT62 98 KQ6543 Q

The bidding went 1♣:1♦ 2N:3N for a horrible 3N contract, 6♦ makes.
I often escape to 3N when it may not be the best contract. Good lesson for me here and something else to discuss with P's.

FWIW, if you play some form of nmf over 1x-1y-1nt many also play it over 1x-1y-2nt. I play 2-way nmf over 1x-1y-1nt and 1x-1y-2nt, even when x=♣ and y=♦, so for me 3♦ would be gf and ask about majors, and while a 3M rebid could often be to play, over 1♣-1♦-2nt-3♠ has to show non-minimum since with a minimum I'd bid 1♠ first time and/or pass 2nt. But it is worth discussing with a pickup partner if you agree to nmf is it on over 2nt as well as 1nt.

[mikeh]

JB: I am late to the thread but let me echo what (virtually) everyone said: 2N does NOT deny a 4 card major..... AJxx AQxx Jx AKx... what would you have him bid over 1♦? Bidding 1♥ then 2N later shows a different hand-type. It is standard to rebid 2N.

Therefore, as responder you have to either show your major or have a conventional (artificial) way of asking opener to bid a major if he has one.

There are several popular methods over 2N rebids.

If you don't play one, or even if you do... unless you play transfers (which are very powerful imo).... 3♠ is natural and forcing. It is the opposite of a torture bid since, as we discussed, opener may well have 4♠....in which case he can raise with a horrible hand or cue bid with a good hand.

On the given hand, I think that opener should in fact raise 3♠ to 4♠. His heart holding is enough to suggest that 3N is not a good spot. You are not going to reach 6♦ playing standard methods... at least, not reliably.

Transfers MIGHT reach it a little more often: responder bids 3♣ which forces 3♦... it forces it since responder might have a horrible hand and be intending to pass. Then responder bids 3♠... natural and forcing... and since responder went out of his way to show diamonds before spades, responder is probably 4=6.

Now, opener has a pretty good hand... he can count zero losers in the round suits and slam will depend on having only one loser in spades and diamonds... and his holding in spades is very good and his diamond holding surely has to help fill in the suit... I am not saying that bidding slam is automatic, but the partnership has chances.

BTW, if we played a walsh style, we would have responded 1♠, then transferred to diamonds, then bid 3N to show 4 spades, longer diamonds and doubts about 3N.... and since we wouldn't have doubts if we held, say, 4=3=5=1, opener can perhaps conclude that 4♠ is safer.. 6♦ wouldn't be possible, imo.

[ArtK78]

I am in a distinct minority here as my choice over 2NT was 3♦; but that is not the reason for this post.

In Standard bidding, unless a partnership has agreed specifically to the contrary, any call over opener's 2NT rebid is game forcing. I didn't even realize that this was controversial.

Wolff Signoffs were created as a way for responder to get out at the 3 level after a 2NT rebid by opener.

So, I don't understand the reluctance of some posters to bid 3♦ on the theory that it might be passed (if you don't like the 3♦ bid for other reasons, that is another issue). But I don't know who they are playing with.

[jillybean]

Thanks all! Of course 2nt doesn't deny a 4CM, what was I thinking/drinking?

Another friend says I often bid like I have to (or feel like I have to) decide the contract, and/or am concerned about partner passing. This is true and as much as I love BBO, poor partners and random games play havoc with the game.

[P_Marlowe]

jillybean2, on Jul 13 2009, 10:59 PM, said:

Thanks all! Of course 2nt doesn't deny a 4CM, what was I thinking/drinking? 

Another friend says I often bid like I have to (or feel like I have to) decide the contract, and/or am concerned about partner passing. This is true and as much as I love BBO, poor partners and random games play havoc with the game.

Yes. this is true, you need a regular partnership.

But if you happen to play with a stranger, I recommend that
you dont bypass a 4card major, if you bid 2NT, it simplifies
finding a fit in the major.

With kind regards
Marlowe

PS: We play that 2NT does basically deny a 4CM, but 3S could
still be based on a 4 arder, it would be looking for a 4-3 fit, for
what ever reson.