[kenrexford]

jdonn, on Jul 1 2009, 03:26 PM, said:

kenrexford, on Jul 1 2009, 03:11 PM, said:

The problem with showing the minor at the six-level is that you kind of lose the ability to explore anything intelligently.  If 4♣ and 4♦ show the 5422 hands, then Responder can presumably bid something systemic as RKCB for the minor as an agreement of the minor, with the benefit of all things that arise from RKCB auctions.

Lol, about 45 seconds ago I mocked you in another thread for seeming to be unable to bid without an exact agreement on what everything shows, rather than using logic and judgment to figure it out. And then I read this!

This should be an easy one, though. For me, the cheapest out-of-focus major is RKCB for the agreed (or to be agreed) minor. I'd rather have that sort of easy agreement than rely upon "logic and judgment" to somehow peer into partner's hand to see how many of the top three cards in his minor he has and how many Aces he has.

[cherdanno]

jdonn, on Jul 1 2009, 09:09 AM, said:

Jlall, on Jul 1 2009, 02:34 AM, said:

4 of a minor with 52(42) and 18-19 seems normal to me.

I do not agree. Opener had a chance to show a minor, responder had a chance to show a minor, and they still have one more chance to find a minor (4NT 6m, 4NT 5NT 6m). If all those get ignorred and you still belong in a 4-4 minor suit fit, then someone made a judgment error in not showing it when he could have. What you say is in fitting with your general principles but there is no need on this auction.

I think your argument is circular. If opener bids 3m rather than 2N with 5242 and 18-19, then obviously there is no need for 4m over 3N to show that hand. But if he can still have that hand, then there is obviously still benefit for showing precisely this hand at the 4-level. The benefit isn't only to find 6m, but also to stop in 4N with misfitting values.

I would also take 4m as a cuebid for hearts with 18-19 balanced, but there is no logic dictating so.

[Stephen Tu]

So, I guess the conclusion of all this is that 4♥ still shows 12-14 or 18-19 .

Anyway, I was partner of the 4♥ bidder. I frankly had never seen or perpetrated any call other than 4nt here, so I was thinking "I accept" as soon as I saw partner reaching for the box. But then the 4♥ came and I went into the tank.

I thought jdonn's min weak trumps discouraging interpretation was the most logical, and the only one that made sense to try to pull on partner, since otherwise you have an alternative unambiguous 4nt. So I passed and made 7 for an improbable push against opps who also don't know how to bid . Partner intended it as a 4nt raise with unusually good hearts (AK doubleton); he agreed afterwards that this is too dangerous without discussion. I also thought that was a possiblity but much less likely.

Having a call to show great hearts in context (maybe 2/top 4?) doesn't seem bad to me, it would help borderline accept decisions holding heart suits of the KJxxx, QJxxx variety where there is a world of difference being 84% for 5 tricks vs. 18% for 5 tricks or 36% for 4 tricks. But I don't know if 4h should be the call for that, perhaps the discouraging raise is the better use.

What does 4♠ mean, anyway?

[kenrexford]

Stephen Tu, on Jul 1 2009, 03:48 PM, said:

What does 4♠ mean, anyway?

I was thinking the same thing just as I reached your question. LOL

Seems that the default should be the functional equivalent of a 4NT call but really good spades. Probably three of the top four honors, which makes the suit playable as trumps opposite Hx comfortably and playable in a pinch opposite a stiff honor? But, quantitative?

This would allow partner to visualize pulling trumps after a 4-2 split with one trump remaining, which could provide an extra level of control or even an ability to set up his hearts.

Combine AKJxx-Qx in spades with Kx-AQxxx in hearts, and you have 9 tricks in those suits even after two 4-2 splits, with no losers. With three more quicks on the outside, the spade slam is superior.

E.g.:

♠AKJxx ♥Kx ♦Kxx ♣Axx opposite
♠Qx ♥AQxxx ♦Axx ♣Jxx

12 tricks at 6♠ is spades split 4-2 and hearts split 4-2, with no problems. 6NT, however, fails on a club lead when hearts split 4-2, barring some squeeze.

Because the whole idea would be to suggest a trump contract, which is only likely to be better after establishing hearts, this also seems to suggest Qx/Kx/Ax in hearts.

[junyi_zhu]

Stephen Tu, on Jun 29 2009, 04:50 PM, said:

2/1 GF.
1♠-2♥;
2nt-3nt;
4♥?

What should this mean & should you try this w/o discussion?

This sequence looks very gib, and it's impossible in my 2/1, cause we use 2S to show minimum. Well, gib may bid like this with AKxxx Kx Kxx xxx....