[Hanoi5]

Your red vs white and your partner deals and opens 1♥. What do you bid with:

♠QJT9854
♥T54
♦A
♣J7

What about:

♠KJT9854
♥T5
♦A
♣J74

And:
♠QJT8
♥T54
♦AK4
♣J74

What's the meaning of the following auction:

1♥ Pa 1NT 3♣
3♥ Pa 3♠

[manudude03]

Without any other agreements, i respond 1♠ and rebid 2♠ with the first 2 (noting that the second hand is a big max). With the third, I respond 1NT and rebid 3♥.

I would take the auction with 1NT followed by 3♠ to ask partner to bid 3NT with clubs stopped.

[helene_t]

With spades you bid 1♠ unless the hand happens to qualify for a 2♠ shift, whatever you have agreed with p that means.

In the last auction, 3♠ is a choice of game, opener bids 3NT if he stops clubs.

[andy_h]

1♠ x 3.
On the first two I plan to rebid 2♠, on the 3rd I plan to jump to 3♥ inviting. On the 3rd if we were NV I would just raise 2♥ noting I'm a maximum but 4333 and Jxx pushing to the 3lvl seems a bit much, but the QJTx and AKx gets me to invite at vul.

On the auction provided, I guess it can be a NT probe or maybe it could be an advanced cue for hearts if say responder has a 3card limit raise with short clubs or maybe choice of games between 3NT and 4♥ if opener's heart suit is near-solid. I'm sure it's something I won't do at the table without prior discussion with my partner.

[jdonn]

1♠ on the first two since I plan to play in spades, or at least try to several times unless partner keeps rebidding hearts.

1NT on the third, you can bid 1♠ or 1NT on the third to show a limit raise so you only bid 1♠ if you want partner to evaluate his spade holding. Singleton or xxx are not terrible for partner so I start with 1NT. (Also I'm going to 'mastermind' with 2NT over a 2♣ rebid, but shh don't tell.)

Btw if I get lol'ed on the third one it shouldn't be for choosing 1NT over 1♠, it should be for not raising to 2♥ to begin with.

[P_Marlowe]

#1 1S, followed by 3S, I have seven spades, the heart fit will be
helpful in a spade contract
If partner showes up with 6 heats, I will reconsider
#2 1S, followed by 3S
#3 1S followed by 3H, if you want to downgrade this to a constructive
raise, i.e. if y want to bid 2H (7-10), this would be fine as well
#4 Cue, showing a limit raise with 3 card support

With kind regards
Marlowe

[barryallen]

jdonn, on Jun 26 2009, 09:35 AM, said:

1♠ on the first two since I plan to play in spades, or at least try to several times unless partner keeps rebidding hearts.

1NT on the third, you can bid 1♠ or 1NT on the third to show a limit raise so you only bid 1♠ if you want partner to evaluate his spade holding. Singleton or xxx are not terrible for partner so I start with 1NT. (Also I'm going to 'mastermind' with 2NT over a 2♣ rebid, but shh don't tell.)

Btw if I get lol'ed on the third one it shouldn't be for choosing 1NT over 1♠, it should be for not raising to 2♥ to begin with.

Help me out with #3, is that on the basis of Flannery? or a 2♥ response to 1NT with

Scoring: IMP

---

Fully understand on the basis of Flannery and trying to get the best information from / across to partner but at the present cannot see the benefit over a 1♠ resonse?

As for #4, as long as you assume the bid to be looking towards 3NT, can there be any problem after partners next bid?

[jdonn]

Sorry I can't tell what you are asking or what flannery has to do with my answer. I don't really care on this hand if we play a 5-3 heart fit instead of a 4-4 spade fit, so if I was making a limit raise in hearts I would only do it via 1♠ (as opposed to 1NT) if I wanted partner to evaluate largely based on his spade holding. I don't on this hand.

I was pretty much saying three things.
- I prefer 1NT then 3♥ to 1♠ then 3♥.
- Raising to 2♥ immediately is fine.
- After 1♥ 1NT, 2♣ I will rebid 2NT instead of 3♥.

[barryallen]

jdonn, on Jun 26 2009, 12:56 PM, said:

Sorry I can't tell what you are asking or what flannery has to do with my answer. I don't really care on this hand if we play a 5-3 heart fit instead of a 4-4 spade fit, so if I was making a limit raise in hearts I would only do it via 1♠ (as opposed to 1NT) if I wanted partner to evaluate largely based on his spade holding. I don't on this hand.

I was pretty much saying three things.
- I prefer 1NT then 3♥ to 1♠ then 3♥.
- Raising to 2♥ immediately is fine.
- After 1♥ 1NT, 2♣ I will rebid 2NT instead of 3♥.

The reason I mentioned Flannery is on the basis that may rule out the 5♥, 4♠ standard point opening from partner? As my preference would be for the game in the 4-4 ♠ suit rather than the 5-3 ♥ fit. The other point I was considering was allowing opener the opportunity of a 1NT response?

Thank you for the full explanation.

[Apollo81]

jdonn, on Jun 26 2009, 01:56 PM, said:

I was pretty much saying three things.
- I prefer 1NT then 3♥ to 1♠ then 3♥.
- Raising to 2♥ immediately is fine.
- After 1♥ 1NT, 2♣ I will rebid 2NT instead of 3♥.

I agree with (1) and (3), but disagree with (2). I think the hand is too good for just a single raise, even without one of the major tens.

[Jlall]

jdonn preempted my LOL with another LOL.

Anyways obviously the reason to bid 1S with QJT8 while holding Txx of hearts is to find 4S. It's not rocket science that almost 100 % of the time partner has 4-5 in the majors you want to play spades, so it is silly to give up on that for no reason.

Oh, the reason is so partner doesn't think xxx or x are bad? lol ok.

[Jlall]

For further clarity, the reasons it is obvious to play a 4-4 spade fit with this hand are:

1) Partner might get tapped in the club suit in hearts, but not if spades are trumps.
2) With our excellent spades we can withstand a bad split much more easily, or perhaps ruff in dummy and use our spades to pull trumps.
3) With our terrible hearts we will be in trouble on a bad heart split playing in hearts but not necessarily in spades (Kxxx Axxxx Qx Ax).
4) We might be able to setup the hearts via a ruff playing in spades.

[Jlall]

And lastly, bidding 1S DOES help partner evaluate when he's got a hand like Kxx AKQxx xxx xx which would never bid game over a 3 card limit raise unless partner has bid 1S. Even though that is a cherry picked example, I would say on average bidding 1S will help partner evaluate more than it will hurt him.

[jdonn]

3 posts to make your point = LOL

Ditto for the exagerations (almost 100%, no reason)

Ditto for Kxxx Axxxx Qx Ax where you won't get to game anyway and where as I said I will be in 2NT, which makes on any breaks.

I disagree that bidding 1♠ does more good for partner's evaluation than harm but it's at least a valid point. (I know you know this but just to point out for anyone to see, reverse the minors in your example and you are in 4♥ with no play at all.) Even Axx AKQxx xx xxx is not a good game.

[junyi_zhu]

jdonn, on Jun 26 2009, 09:09 PM, said:

3 posts to make your point = LOL

Ditto for the exagerations (almost 100%, no reason)

Ditto for Kxxx Axxxx Qx Ax where you won't get to game anyway and where as I said I will be in 2NT, which makes on any breaks.

I disagree that bidding 1♠ does more good for partner's evaluation than harm but it's at least a valid point. (I know you know this but just to point out for anyone to see, reverse the minors in your example and you are in 4♥ with no play at all.) Even Axx AKQxx xx xxx is not a good game.

Well, you can save some space if you bid 1S and your partner bids 1NT, then you can bid 2C which relays to 2D and show your H support and invitational value at two level, which is a big gain. So overall, it's still better to bid 1S IMO.

[gnasher]

A reason not to bid 1♠ with 4=3 in the majors and invitational values is that
  1♥-1♠;2♠ might have only three spades, and
  1♥-1♠;2♠-3♥ is usually played as forcing (isn't it?)
so by bidding 1♠ you risk not being able to show your hand.

I suppose that some pairs solve this problem by playing 3♥ as non-forcing, perhaps with an artificial 2NT.

This post has been edited by gnasher: 2009-June-26, 15:51

[Jlall]

If you can raise with 3 spades and don't have any way to show that you did so later, good luck to you.

[gnasher]

Jlall, on Jun 26 2009, 11:32 PM, said:

If you can raise with 3 spades and don't have any way to show that you did so later, good luck to you.

It's easy to establish how many spades opener has. The question is, can you do that whilst allowing responder to show an invitation with three hearts, in a way that lets you stop in 3♥ opposite a minimum, but reach 4♥ if opener wants to accept the invitation?

[jdonn]

gnasher, on Jun 26 2009, 06:22 PM, said:

Jlall, on Jun 26 2009, 11:32 PM, said:

If you can raise with 3 spades and don't have any way to show that you did so later, good luck to you.

It's easy to establish how many spades opener has. The question is, can you do that whilst allowing responder to show an invitation with three hearts, in a way that lets you stop in 3♥ opposite a minimum, but reach 4♥ if opener wants to accept the invitation?

I'm fairly sure Justin (and many experts though far from all) play, in steps, something like min 3, max 3, min 4, max 4. So if opener bids 3♣ he could probably sign off in 3♥.

[cherdanno]

I would have thought 1S is obvious on the third. QJT8!!!