[jillybean]

Playing 2/1

1M:1nt
2M

What is your 2M here?

thanks

[helene_t]

11-14/15 points, 6+ M, usually no 4-card lower ranking suit.

[inquiry]

Jilly, take a look at this very old thread...

Yzerman's thread on this subject

[TylerE]

The *really* salient question is wether 1M-2x-2NT promises extras or not.

[Jlall]

inquiry, on Jun 24 2009, 09:22 PM, said:

Jilly, take a look at this very old thread...

Yzerman's thread on this subject

That takes me back...

[benlessard]

There is 3 style that i know here.

The first is that

2M shows a minimum, some play up to 15 but some up to 14.
2m might be 3m&6M with 15-17
3M shows a very good suit playable facing a stiff, almost GF

The 2nd

2M shows 6 cards up to 16.
2m is always 4 or balanced (if you play 1Nt forcing) and you never bid 2m with 6M and 3m.
3M show a very good suit.
With a bad suit 6M and 17 pts you open 1H followed by 2NT.

the 3rd
2M is minimum
3M dont show a good suit but show 6 and 15-17
You rarely open 1Nt or rebid 2NT with 6M


Some have no problem opening 1Nt with 6M if they feel their hand is
Too strong to open 1M followed by 2M,
Suit not good enough for 1M ...3M
Too weak for 1M followeed by 2Nt



I play the first, at imps im fairly convinced the first is the best way. At MP im not so sure. The idea behind this method is that medium hand with a 6M & bad suit play badly vs a stiff trump but tend do to ok vs a preference (xx). So if partner pass 2m hes probably got a stiff in your Major or got a garbage hand with fairly long in your m (afraid to give false preference) in both case 2m (even in a 3-3 fit) should play fine compared to 3M in a 6-1 with bad trumps

[jillybean]

TylerE, on Jun 24 2009, 07:56 PM, said:

The *really* salient question is wether 1M-2x-2NT promises extras or not.

12-14 or 18-19 balanced
..so not one of my marginal openers

[P_Marlowe]

Hi,

most will play, that 2M showes a 6 carder, but than they will also
play, that 2C could be based on only on a 2 card suit.

For us, 2M promises 6 cards, if we are speaking about spades and
only 5 cards, if we speak about hearts.

With kind regards
Marlowe

[P_Marlowe]

jillybean2, on Jun 25 2009, 02:54 AM, said:

TylerE, on Jun 24 2009, 07:56 PM, said:

The *really* salient question is wether 1M-2x-2NT promises extras or not.

12-14 or 18-19 balanced
..so not one of my marginal openers

If you want to play 2/1 succesfully, than you should be aware,
that you should strengthen your openings, i.e. regularily opening
marginal hands does not work well in a 2/1 system.

If you stil want to open marginial hands, than it may make sense
to play 1NT semiforcing, than at least you will be able to pass 1NT
if yu are seminbal. with a marginal opening.

With kind regards
Marlowe

[Free]

TylerE, on Jun 25 2009, 03:56 AM, said:

The *really* salient question is wether 1M-2x-2NT promises extras or not.

No it's not, since the auction starts 1M-1NT, not 1M-2x...

I play 1M-1NT-2M as <16HCP with 6+M. 3M would be <16HCP with a good offensive hand and 6+M. 16+HCP hands are handled with Gazzilli. Minimum 5332's also start with 2♣ Gazzilli (or pass if absolutely minimum).

[helene_t]

P_Marlowe, on Jun 25 2009, 12:13 PM, said:

For us, 2M promises 6 cards, if we are speaking about spades and
only 5 cards, if we speak about hearts.

This is very non-standard. In all systems I have heard about, 2M promises 6. Even in Acol.

[Fluffy]

helene_t, on Jun 25 2009, 12:31 PM, said:

P_Marlowe, on Jun 25 2009, 12:13 PM, said:

For us, 2M promises 6 cards, if we are speaking about spades and
only 5 cards, if we speak about hearts.

This is very non-standard. In all systems I have heard about, 2M promises 6. Even in Acol.

It is just an exception for the 4522, you can systematcaly bid 2♣, 2♥, pass, or just do whatever fits you best (based on heart's quality)

[jillybean]

helene_t, on Jun 25 2009, 05:31 AM, said:

P_Marlowe, on Jun 25 2009, 12:13 PM, said:

For us, 2M promises 6 cards, if we are speaking about spades and
only 5 cards, if we speak about hearts.

This is very non-standard. In all systems I have heard about, 2M promises 6. Even in Acol.

Hi Helene,

Do you use 2M promising 6 specifically in the auction 1M:1nt 2M not to be confused with 1M:2x 2M which can be 5 ?

Marlow; point taken, my openings in general have improved a great deal

[Lobowolf]

jillybean2, on Jun 25 2009, 10:19 AM, said:

Do you use 2M promising 6 specifically in the auction 1M:1nt 2M not to be confused with 1M:2x 2M which can be 5 ?

Yes. (Not that I'm Helene).

This key distinction is entirely standard in 2/1. The short reason is that the 1NT response lets you bid a 3-card minor (or a 2-card minor, when you're 4-5-2-2 and not strong enough to reverse), so the 2M rebid can be kept "pure" (6-card length).

Since any 2m response eats up the 2♣ rebid (and the 2♦ response eats up the 2♦ rebid, too), there's more pressure on opener's rebid. That pressure is relieved by expanding 2M to include 5-card suits in the auction 1M-2m. The alternatives would be for opener to rebid 2NT on unbalanced hands, or for opener to rebid at the 3-level on a minimum. The overwhelming consensus is that the best way to handle it is to make the 2M rebid in a 2/1 auction a catchall, including 5-card suits.

[peachy]

By elimination, it must be six-card suit because there is no need to rebid a five-card suit as "default with minimums" when opener has room to describe his hand with no problem. The range can be minimum or just short of bidding 3M and it is non-forcing.

[jillybean]

Thats the idea however many many people play 2M is always 6, I've found it is good to be very specific when talking about these auctions.

1M:1nt 2M 6
1M:2x 2M 5

[Echognome]

I have heard of people playing 1M - 2x - 2M as both 5+ (my preferred) and 6+. But I have not heard of anyone playing 1M - 1N - 2M as showing 5. I don't really understand how that even makes sense.

If you play a nonforcing NT, then with a 5M332 hand or a 4=5=2=2 or even a 4=5=(13) hand (e.g. Kxxx AJxxx K Qxx), you can pass with a minimum. If you have extras, then you can agree to open 1NT with a 5cM, play a forcing NT (see below), or rebid 2NT (depending on how much extra).

If you play a forcing NT, then you cannot pass, so you agree to play 2m can be 3 cards. You can then have the further agreement that diamonds is 4+ and clubs may be 2+ (if you play, e.g., BART). You can discuss with your partner what you do with 4=5=2=2 hands (likely 2♣).

But I have yet to hear of a 5cM system where you would rebid your major after 1NT with only 5 cards.

[Lobowolf]

jillybean2, on Jun 25 2009, 12:22 PM, said:

Thats the idea however many many people play 2M is always 6, I've found it is good to be very specific when talking about these auctions.

1M:1nt 2M  6
1M:2x 2M 5

If they play it's always 6, then what they're probably doing is always rebidding their distribution naturally, e.g.

1♥-2♦;
3♣

on a minimum hand with something like 3-5-1-4 distribution.

This is not an uncommon treatment at the novice/intermediate level, and it's mentioned as an alternative in Max Hardy's 2/1 (yellow) book, from back in the day; however, it's overwhelmingly been rejected in modern expert practice. The huge consensus (I hesitate to say unanimous, but picture a word that pretty much means the same thing) is that in the given auction, 3♣ would promise extra values. In the absence of those extra values, the correct rebid is 2♥.

It's definitely worth discussion with a non-expert partner, because not only might you have misunderstandings about the length after 1M-2m; 2M, you'll also have misunderstandings about 1M-2♦; 3♣. When you're the opener, your partner might not understand that you have extras. When he's the opener, you might be mistaken if you assume he has extras.

[jillybean]

Lobowolf, on Jun 25 2009, 10:45 AM, said:

jillybean2, on Jun 25 2009, 12:22 PM, said:

Thats the idea however many many people play 2M is always 6, I've found it is good to be very specific when talking about these auctions.

1M:1nt 2M  6
1M:2x 2M 5

If they play it's always 6, then what they're probably doing is always rebidding their distribution naturally, e.g.

1♥-2♦;
3♣

on a minimum hand with something like 3-5-1-4 distribution.

This is not an uncommon treatment at the novice/intermediate level, and it's mentioned as an alternative in Max Hardy's 2/1 (yellow) book, from back in the day; however, it's overwhelmingly been rejected in modern expert practice. The huge consensus (I hesitate to say unanimous, but picture a word that pretty much means the same thing) is that in the given auction, 3♣ would promise extra values. In the absence of those extra values, the correct rebid is 2♥.

It's definitely worth discussion with a non-expert partner, because not only might you have misunderstandings about the length after 1M-2m; 2M, you'll also have misunderstandings about 1M-2♦; 3♣. When you're the opener, your partner might not understand that you have extras. When he's the opener, you might be mistaken if you assume he has extras.

I agree what you say is best practice, these auctions have been discussed at length on forums. My point is that what is forum/expert/modern standard is NOT
standard in the wider world, online or real life, or atleast not with the people I'm playing with.

[helene_t]

jillybean2, on Jun 25 2009, 04:19 PM, said:

Do you use 2M promising 6 specifically in the auction 1M:1nt 2M not to be confused with 1M:2x 2M which can be 5 ?

Hi Kathryn,

I like opener repeating his suit to always show 6 except when it's the cheapest available bid. That is very non-standard, though. With a pick-up partner I would assume
1M-2x
2M
to be either
1) a 6-card, the hand is too weak for 3M
2) a 6-card, the suit is too weak for 3M
3) a two-suited hand with the second suit lower than x, and the hand too weak for 3y (i.e. max. 14 HCP or such)
4) a hand with primary support for partner's suit but again, the hand is too weak to raise immediately
5) a balanced hand too weak and/or lacking stoppers for 2N

At least 3) is almost universal. 4) and 5) I would be least confident about.