[benlessard]

1D---1H
1S---1NT
2C

What is the typical hand for this bid.


Also is this one forcing ?

1C----1H
1S----1NT
2D

[rbforster]

I'd guess the first one is natural and shapely (but NF), while the second one is similar but forcing (not GF or else 2♠ over 1♥ however).

[gnasher]

benlessard, on Jun 22 2009, 06:44 AM, said:

1D---1H
1S---1NT
2C

What is the typical hand for this bid.

The normal meaning is probably natural and invitational, but it's not particularly useful in that sense. Instead:

If 1♠ was forcing, 2♣ ought to be Fourth Suit Forcing.

If your style is to bid 1♠ over 1♥ with a 4351 minimum, 2♣ can usefully be used to show a stronger 4351 shape.

[ONEferBRID]

Both auctions have Opener "patterning out " showing short Hts in both cases:
something like 4-1-4-4 and 4-0-4-5 , disliking 1NT...and neither is forcing.

[helene_t]

The first one is to play.

The second one I haven't come across but I think it should be invitational. 4135 or 4045 with 16-18 points (or 15, depending on the range for the 1NT bid).

[jdonn]

The first is a minimum hand, all 4054 / 4045 hands, and 4144 hands as judgment dictates. The second is 4045 or 4135 and extras (4144 or 4054 and enough extra rebids 3♣). People so often seem to forget that just because partner responded in a major doesn't mean he has it well stopped, or stopped at all, or that you can't have a good fit in a suit he couldn't mention naturally.

[rbforster]

It seemed obvious that 4045 shaped hands would bid this way.

What about 4054? If seems like you'll lose spades if you don't rebid 1♠ (starting 1♦...2♣ instead), so perhaps this means that the first auction could be 5/4 either way in the minors. With longer clubs you have the option to reverse if strong enough and maybe show 4 spades later (1♣...2♦...3♠), but with longer diamonds and not enough to jump shift it seems like you're forced into one of these sequences.

So actually I think the first auction shows 40(54) (or maybe 4144, but I'd probably just pass 1N), and the second auction shows extras with 4054 or 4144 (but not 4045 since that would reverse). What do the experts think?

[ONEferBRID]

To show the stronger 4- ( 0 or 1 ) - ( 4/4 or 4/5 or 5/4 ) , say a good 17+ - 19 unbalanced, Opener would bid 2NT as his 3rd call.
1m - 1H
1S - 1NT
2NT

Many do not want to make a jump-rebid of 2NT ( 18,19 balanced) directly over the 1H response when holding 4 cards Sp, when they don't have a proper check-back system in place.
They also may play 1-over-1 bids are forcing to 1NT.

[skjaeran]

The first sequence would just be patterning out for me, with a minimum opener (11-15). The shape would be 4-0-5-4 or maybe 4-1-5-3 for me, I open 1♣ with 4-4/4-5 in the minors.

The second sequence would be invitational with 4-0-4-5.

[kfay]

1st is natural, wtp?

2nd is natural too, wtp? Albiet, stronger. I had an auction like this a while back (1♦-1♥; 1♠-1N; 3♣) where I had a hand just below GF strength, 4054. Hands with shape exist... why shouldn't I be able to show them?

[benlessard]

I play that both are 15-17 nat non- forcing and i thought it was standard. I remember reading about it long ago but dont remember where.

The minimum hand where you would like to bid 2C to improve the partscore (bad 15 or less) are

4054,4063. To bid 2C with a minimum 4153 will give very little and to do it with a 4144 is terrible.

However the 15-17 hands where you would like to invite for game are

4054,4063,4144(unless you always open 1C) and the more frequent 4153. So even if it seems disagreable to pass 1NT with a H void and a minimum im pretty sure its best to use 2C as a nat game try so that the 15-17 hand arent forced to jump to 3C/3D or bid 2Nt.

Jumping to 3C with a 16 count 4054 is asking for trouble, same goes for bidding 2Nt with a 4153.


Also note that at imps finding the best game is much more important than improving partscore and at MP 1NT might easily be a better spot than 2m anyway.



PS This is taking into account that 1S isnt forcing.

[FrancesHinden]

I can't believe I'm writing this in public, but these are the two auctions that our system file specifically says are not fsf...

We have agreed that 1C - 1H* - 1S - 1NT - 2D is natural extra values but NF

*really 1D showing hearts

We have agreed that 1D - 1H - 1S - 1NT - 2C is weak NF

but.... this is in a culture where opener has shown an unbalanced hand with the 1S rebid (1D - 1H - 1S could be 4144, 1C - 1H - 1S must have 5 clubs and 4 spades), and where responder will typically give preference to opener's minor with a doubleton; 1NT is a constructive call with length in the unbid suit.

[mikeh]

jdonn, on Jun 22 2009, 09:13 AM, said:

The first is a minimum hand, all 4054 / 4045 hands, and 4144 hands as judgment dictates. The second is 4045 or 4135 and extras (4144 or 4054 and enough extra rebids 3♣). People so often seem to forget that just because partner responded in a major doesn't mean he has it well stopped, or stopped at all, or that you can't have a good fit in a suit he couldn't mention naturally.

I think this is normal in NA (dare I say 'standard'?)

As for ben's comment (which is not an argument or reasoning but merely a conclusion) that using the 2♣ on a 4=1=4=4 is 'terrible'... all I can say is that he presumably has an aversion to small plus scores

We all (or most of us do) bid like the posted responder on hands such as xx Jxxx Kx KJxxx... and opposite a hand such as Axxx x QJxx AQxx, after they knock out the spade A, we are going to have to run our clubs to get out for down 1 in 1N... and how many clubs do we make? It is even worse when responder is 2=4=3=4, same high cards. Even matchpoint fanatics eventually learn that minor suit plus scores are better than notrump minus scores. And imp players learn that faster.

Every now and then, we end up playing a moysian when responder is some 5332, but even that is no crime.

[jdonn]

Can't there even be a 10 card club fit after
1♦ 1♥
1♠ 1NT
?

In fact, if I may very carefully construct one example of many,
AQxx x Axxx Kxxx
Kx xxxx x Axxxxx
If there is even a very slight chance we have a slam, I prefer not to pass 1NT as a guess as the best partscore (2♣ is at least as good a guess at the best partscore after all.) I would certainly not call the bid that would find the fit terrible, or else it might seem like I don't know what I'm talking about. Heck it's not even hard to bid, responder could virtually bid keycard over 2♣ (yeah I know some responses would take him too high, I'm not saying he should do that I'm just expressing the value of his hand.)

I just don't see passing 1NT on suit-oriented 4144 hands there. Sure KQxx x QJTx AJxx I could much more happily pass. Just because it can show 4144 doesn't mean it's required.

[benlessard]

At imps im pretty sure its more likely 2m will go down than 1Nt will fail unless holding a perfect suit oriented hand.

1- partner is favorite to have 5 or 6H here.

2- LHO didnt overcall 1H. and RHO will be reticent to lead H in partner suits against a 1Nt contract wich often need a passive lead. (where blowing a trick is more likely to be costly than losing a vital tempo)

3- bidding 2C will help the defense a lot. Both for lead and for the rest of the hand.

4- partner shouldnt be averse to raise to 2D with xx in spades and 3D to an honor.

As for MP, lets just say that years of bridge give me faith in 1NT.

I should say bad not terrible.

[jdonn]

benlessard, on Jun 24 2009, 07:48 PM, said:

1- partner is favorite to have 5 or 6H here.

2- LHO didnt overcall 1H. and RHO will be reticent to lead H in partner suits against a 1Nt contract wich often need a passive lead. (where blowing a trick is more likely to be costly than losing a vital tempo)

3- bidding 2C will help the defense a lot. Both for lead and for the rest of the hand. 

4- partner shouldnt be averse to raise to 2D with xx in spades and 3D to an honor.

1- is LOL (1NT is likely to hold 6 hearts!)

2- is not true, RHO would be foolish not to make his normal lead from a 5 card heart suit on a limited auction. Is is not an auction at all that calls for a passive lead, it calls for making your normal lead.

3- is true, as it was of the 1♠, 1♥, and 1♦ bids. That's the thing with bidding, you have to show what you hold to reach the best contract.

4- is completely irrelevant, I don't see what it has to do with bidding 2♣ or not. If anything it's a plus for 2♣ since you are saying the odds of partner having 3 diamonds are reduced, so he is a little more likely to have club length.

[benlessard]

Quote

1- is LOL (1NT is likely to hold 6 hearts!)

use bbrowser or make a sim and youll see that responder is more likely to have 5 or 6H rather than 4 and its not that close. You may like to rebid 2H with any 6 card H suit but i prefer to rebid 1Nt with 6 lousy h.

Quote

4- is completely irrelevant, I don't see what it has to do with bidding 2♣ or not. If anything it's a plus for 2♣ since you are saying the odds of partner having 3 diamonds are reduced, so he is a little more likely to have club length.

No what im saying is that partner is unlikely to have a doubleton S or clud and 3 diamonds. Therefore 3523,3433, are the more frequent shapes. than 2533,3532 (with this shape he might be tempted to pass 1s if holding marginal values)

[jdonn]

benlessard, on Jun 25 2009, 06:48 AM, said:

Quote

1- is LOL (1NT is likely to hold 6 hearts!)

use bbrowser or make a sim and youll see that responder is more likely to have 5 or 6H rather than 4 and its not that close.

A sim? A sim won't account for the fact that if you rebid 1NT with 6 hearts you don't know how to bid, of course granting for rare exceptions for terrible suits in lopsided hands.

[Echognome]

jdonn, on Jun 25 2009, 07:44 AM, said:

A sim? A sim won't account for the fact that if you rebid 1NT with 6 hearts you don't know how to bid, of course granting for rare exceptions for terrible suits in lopsided hands.

Agree. Just wanted to point out that Josh's exception here is when you are deliberately treating your 6 card suit as a 5 card suit not to rebid it. It is a shape distortion you make, because of the distortion in honor location.

[P_Marlowe]

Hi,

2C is FSF, i.e. artifical and forcing.
And similar the 2D in the 2nd auction is also FSF.

Keep it simple.

I know players from NA like to focus on the huge
amount of hands, which happens to be specific 5440,
NF strength, a pattern, which pops up quite often.

Every time I get dealt one, I am at a loss, happens
often enough, now I know the reason, I will discuss
with partner to avoid it in the future.

With kind regards
Marlowe