[helene_t]

Playing with GIB, the auction started
1♦-1♠
2♥-2♠
?
and now I wanted to find out if partner had a sixth spade (or a very chunky 5-card), or if he stopped clubs, before inviting for a diamond slam. In other word, I needed a forcing bid that did not commit us to a particular strain.

GIB appears to play 3♣ as natural here. 2NT, 3♦ and 3♠ are all nonforcing. I didn't check what 3♥ would mean but since my hearts were not so good I didn't consider that. So I saw little alternative to 4♦, which lead to 6♦ while 6♠ would have been better at matchpoints. Fortunately both were off 1 due to bad splits so I got 53% anyway.

With Shogi I play 3♣ as FSF here. Any thoughts?

My hand was AK-Axxx-AKQxxx-x

[Jlall]

Yes 3C is clearly artificial just by virtue of 3D and 2N being NF.

[gnasher]

Stick to playing with Shogi

[andy_h]

3C FSF is perfect.

[mike777]

3c is ugly far from perfect

[gnasher]

mike777, on Jun 21 2009, 06:07 AM, said:

3c is ugly far from perfect

If 3♣ is FSF, it's an artificial bid which creates a game-force and asks responder to describe his hand. How can that be "ugly"?

[Stephen Tu]

What if responder bids 2nt rather than 2♠? Is 3♣ still FSF?
I had a disagreement about this sequence with a few partners, I thought it was FSF,
they wanted to cater to responder with long clubs being able to play there.

[helene_t]

2NT would be Ingberman (or some such) for most partnerships.

[Stephen Tu]

Regardless of what you call it, there's still a question of what opener should do with this moose, if responder could be some weak 4342/4243 with no club strength, bidding 2nt in order to sign off in 3d opposite a min reverse.

If 3♣ is just a default bid with most 2452/1453 hands after 2nt, catering to letting responder passing to play in clubs, then this hand does what, bids 3nt and watch the opps take the first 5 club tricks?

[Jlall]

Stephen Tu, on Jun 21 2009, 02:44 PM, said:

If 3♣ is just a default bid with most 2452/1453 hands after 2nt, catering to letting responder passing to play in clubs, then this hand does what, bids 3nt and watch the opps take the first 5 club tricks?

Huh? This hand bids 3D which is forcing since he didn't bid 3C. Yes you might lose some accuracy in which minor suit partscore to play by not playing both 3C and 3D as NF, but thats a pretty insignificant and infrequent thing.

It is trickier with clubs, 1C 1S 2H 2N, now 3D is artificial.

[Stephen Tu]

My partners were claiming that in a (non-ingberman), bws context, that both 3c/3d were non-forcing, with 3d just showing at least a sixth diamond.

So you are saying that with a 2470 min reverse, opener still bids 3c or are you just going to FG with that and not worry about getting too high?

I see problem hand types for all 3 methods.

[Jlall]

Stephen Tu, on Jun 21 2009, 03:16 PM, said:

My partners were claiming that in a (non-ingberman), bws context, that both 3c/3d were non-forcing, with 3d just showing at least a sixth diamond.

So you are saying that with a 2470 min reverse, opener still bids 3c or are you just going to FG with that and not worry about getting too high?

I see problem hand types for all 3 methods.

Yep, I think playing both 3ms as NF is unplayable and focuses way too much on getting out effectively in the right minor. Even playing 3C is the only bid with minimums, you will almost always get to a 7 card minor fit (yes there are extreme exceptions), and your auctions when you have a strong hand are much better.

[Stephen Tu]

Perhaps utilizing 1♦-1♠-2♥-3♣ as weak+clubs, diamond misfit would ease the situation some. Then opener could use 3c as in the rebid spades auction.