[benlessard]

1C---1D-----2S-----4Nt

Since responder can show a fit in a forcing way i play 4Nt as quant.

IMO it make sense that when you cannot raise in a GF manners 4Nt is keycard in the last bid suit but when you can it should be quant.

1S-------2D
2H-------4Nt = quant

1S-------2D
3H-------4Nt = H keyc

Do you play similar methods ?

[jdonn]

But he can also bid notrump in a forcing way, and would probably much rather bid 2NT than 4NT so opener can continue to describe his hand.

[aguahombre]

benlessard, on May 27 2009, 11:39 AM, said:

1S-------2D
3H-------4Nt = H keyc

3H here is not needed as natural here, but might be better used as a splinter with 4 card diamond support and no extra values. that changes what 4NT would mean, especially if 4d is KK for diamonds.

[benlessard]

I agree that responder will bid 2Nt way more oftne than 4Nt. Just that with a lot of soft values in the unbid suit sometimes 4Nt is best, any bid that grudge a lot of space while slam is still possible. Should be well defined and rare.

Bidding 2Nt can also backfired after opener rebid a suit that was already bid.

1C-----1H
2S-----2Nt
3H-----???

here 4Nt would be H keycard.

If you dont play minor wood

1C------1D
2S------2Nt
3D------4NT (Is it RKC or quant ?)


Also for some 2Nt is artificial. I prefer to used 2Nt as showing half a stopper or a positionnal stopper. So that if you dont bid 2Nt either you have the A or nothing at all. The reasoning behind this is that the payoff of rightsiding is huge when you "know" what theyll lead.


There are also some other case where agreements can save you trouble.


1H-----1S
2D-----3C (4th s GF)
3M-----is 4Nt quant or RKC ?

1H----1S
2H----3C
3H ---4Nt Quant or rkc ?

Quote

3H here is not needed as natural here, but might be better used as a splinter with 4 card diamond support and no extra values. that changes what 4NT would mean, especially if 4d is KK for diamonds.

Im quite pro-splinters but here the big 5-5 is way more frequent than the splinter with 4 trumps. So im pretty convinced that 3H is better played as natural.

If it goes

1S-----2D
2H-----3Nt
???

does 4H show a big 5-5 or a weakish shapely hand ?

[jdonn]

benlessard, on May 27 2009, 12:31 PM, said:

Bidding 2Nt can also backfired after opener rebid a suit that was already bid.

1C-----1H
2S-----2Nt
3H-----???

here 4Nt would be H keycard.

No it should be quantitative. 4♦ strongly agrees hearts, you can bid that if you want to bid keycard.

Quote

1C------1D
2S------2Nt
3D------4NT (Is it RKC or quant ?)

Quantitative, you can bid 4♦ to agree diamonds.

As the above auctions show, bidding 2NT first should never cause confusion later. I guess you can define 4NT as something very specific, but I don't think it could ever be specific enough to give opener all the information he needs with his wide variety of shapes. I can only think of two reasons you would want to use 4NT over 2♠ as quantitative. One is if it fits within your predetermined set of rules or meta-agreements, in which case you simply have to settle for a bad agreement on this auction. The other is if 2NT is needed for something else (you mentioned the possibility), which I just think is very bad.

Quote

Quote

3H here is not needed as natural here, but might be better used as a splinter with 4 card diamond support and no extra values. that changes what 4NT would mean, especially if 4d is KK for diamonds.

Im quite pro-splinters but here the big 5-5 is way more frequent than the splinter with 4 trumps.

I think that's simply untrue. Especially if you require decent suits. The splinter seems to come up all the time and the good 5-5 hands pretty rarely.

[benlessard]

Quote

No it should be quantitative. 4♦ strongly agrees hearts, you can bid that if you want to bid keycard.

This is not played by everybody, and ive seen a good share of disasters because 1 thought that 4Nt was RKC because he didnt spot the artificial raise. Its also nice to show the A in what is possibly a stiff or a void. This is exactly the type of sequence that make me hate 4th GF and new m forcing.

Quote

Quantitative, you can bid 4♦ to agree diamonds.

Sometimes partner just raise to 5D and you dont have the chance to RKC. I play minorwood 100% and strongly suggest to play it.

When you make a temporizing bid vs a direct bid you risk something. The choice is wich do you think is easier to delay.

1C------1H
1S------???

Assuming you dont play minorwood. There is tons of ways to reach 4Nt. But RKC with spades is the easiest to delay. (4th GF, bid S, bid 4Nt) RKC in H will probably be the toughest.

Its possible to see.

1C------1H
1S------2D (GF)
3C------3H
3S (no D stop,stiff or void in H)--------???

Do you bid 4D hoping it show solid H and that partner will bid 4H even with a void so that you ll be able to bid 4Nt asking for keycards ? This was a messy sequence despite being able to make 3 bid at the 1 level and a low 4th GF. Its not too hard to imagine worse.

I dont think that an early quantitative bid is particulary useful, just that in many sequence its so easy to RKC in the last suit that the " if you can make a GF raise 4Nt is quant and if you dont its RKC" make sense