[NickRW]

Codo, on May 18 2009, 02:06 PM, said:

So why do you like it as pass or correct?

Coz you don't really think you belong any higher than 2 if opener has spades - but hearts is OK to go on.

Also, if you have strong options in your multi you have to worry about preempting your own partner too.

Nick

[helene_t]

Codo, on May 18 2009, 03:06 PM, said:

So why do you like it as pass or correct?

A number of reasons.

First, if opener has spades, I reduce the number of turns for opps from 2+1 to 1+1. For example, opener's RHO may have a t/o double of hearts, which gives opener's LHO a penalty double of spades. I may be wrong but I think the probability that we will be allowed to play 2♠ undoubled is slightly higher if responder bids 2♠.

Second, if p has hearts and my opener's LHO has a minor, opener's rebid may prevent the 3m bid.

Third, if opener has a strong balanced hand, the paradox response may rightside a 4♥ contract.

Fourth, if opener has hearts and opener's RHO bids 3m, responder's 2♠ bid allows opener to compete with 3♥. If responder bid 2♥ instead, we won't find our hearts fit.

[Old York]

NickRW, on May 18 2009, 03:06 PM, said:

I don't think "unfamiliar" or "unusual" is, by itself, reason to adjust provided that it is within the regs for the event in question

In any f2f event these players must have a cc, but continuations are often omitted.
Most bbo tournies demand that artificial bids are alerted and explained upon request
This pair had blatantly failed to alert on other hands and had been warned
They refused to alert, director was called and then they refused to explain
The 2♠ bid looked highly unusual with xx in both majors

I have very thick skin, we need to have thick skins to post on bbo forums
I am always happy to admit when I am wrong

Tony

[NickRW]

Old York, on May 18 2009, 02:23 PM, said:

In any f2f event these players must have a cc, but continuations are often omitted.
Most bbo tournies demand that artificial bids are alerted and explained upon request
This pair had blatantly failed to alert on other hands and had been warned
They refused to alert, director was called and then they refused to explain
The 2♠ bid looked highly unusual with xx in both majors

I have very thick skin, we need to have thick skins to post on bbo forums
I am always happy to admit when I am wrong

Tony

Well convention cards are woefully short of space to explain it all - if we required that everything was written down we'd have people bringing whole books to each and every minor event - hardly very workable for casual players.

But with regard to the specific situation, I agree that 2♠ looks suspect without any explanation and if they failed to alert at all, and had repeatedly done it despite warnings, then the board in question may well need adjusting and you were justified in booting them IMO. I think, in a f2f club, if a similar situation were to arise you'd be well within your rights as the director to report such a pair to the owner/committee - which would be the equivalent.

Nick

[barryallen]

NickRW, on May 18 2009, 09:14 AM, said:

Codo, on May 18 2009, 02:06 PM, said:

So why do you like it as pass or correct?

Coz you don't really think you belong any higher than 2 if opener has spades - but hearts is OK to go on.

Also, if you have strong options in your multi you have to worry about preempting your own partner too.

Nick

But if you have strong options in your Multi and your 2♠ bid represents a solid game try in ♥ or pass 2♠, how can you pre-empt partner, when you are representing an opening type hand? You can only be pre-empting partner when you represent a weak hand?

This is exactly catered for with all subsequent bids from 2NT to 3NT over a 2♠ response to the Multi 2♦ opening.

Apologies if I have completely misread your position, as I am likely to do.

[NickRW]

barryallen, on May 18 2009, 03:00 PM, said:

But if you have strong options in your Multi and your 2♠ bid represents a solid game try in ♥ or pass 2♠, how can you pre-empt partner,....

Well, the way I play it, 2NT is the strong response. 2♠ shows at least some willingness to push a preempt in hearts, but does not suggest wanting to be in game particularly (although with excellent heart support, you might still bid it if in the unlikely event partner shows hearts).

This whole business about 2♠ being some sort of strong bid in hearts is foreign to me.

I suppose it depends a bit on how permissive you are with your definition of what constitutes a weak two in the first place. In that case, if the auction that starts 2♦-2♠-3♥, opener could be quite wide ranging. I don't play particularly permissive at all, so this question doesn't worry me.

Nick

[barryallen]

NickRW, on May 18 2009, 11:38 AM, said:

barryallen, on May 18 2009, 03:00 PM, said:

But if you have strong options in your Multi and your 2♠ bid represents a solid game try in ♥ or pass 2♠, how can you pre-empt partner,....

Well, the way I play it, 2NT is the strong response. 2♠ shows at least some willingness to push a preempt in hearts, but does not suggest wanting to be in game particularly (although with excellent heart support, you might still bid it if in the unlikely event partner shows hearts).

This whole business about 2♠ being some sort of strong bid in hearts is foreign to me.

I suppose it depends a bit on how permissive you are with your definition of what constitutes a weak two in the first place. In that case, if the auction that starts 2♦-2♠-3♥, opener could be quite wide ranging. I don't play particularly permissive at all, so this question doesn't worry me.

Nick

The point being, if the 2♠ bid represents a game try in ♥, by the very nature is not a weak bid. Therefore it's difficult to lay the criticism that the 2♠ bid pre-empts opener, nest pas?

If the auction starts 2♦-2♠-3♥, it's very simple, opener is weak and the contract ends there.

[NickRW]

barryallen, on May 18 2009, 05:34 PM, said:

The point being, if the 2♠ bid represents a game try in ♥, by the very nature is not a weak bid. Therefore it's difficult to lay the criticism that the 2♠ bid pre-empts opener, nest pas?

If the auction starts 2♦-2♠-3♥, it's very simple, opener is weak and the contract ends there.

Yeah, but after 2♦-2♠, then 2NT, 3♣, 3♦, 3♠ and further higher bids all mean some sort of strong option to me - there is only 1 bid to show a weak 2 in hearts - hence the problem does not arise - given that my idea of a weak 2 is not very permissive.

Like I've said elsewhere - the multi is not some hugely preemptive tool to me - it is a constructive tool. The thing that gets me exasperated about some people's attitude is that they think I am trying to be destructive with the multi - I agree it can be used in that way - I don't.

Nick