[barryallen]

Following on from the question as to what is acceptable for a X today, at what level do partnerships X on point count alone today? Just to clarify, at what level of points do you make a X, irrespective of shape and how does this fit into other bids available within your system?

[Codo]

never.
There is a fluent way from take out to cooperative, but it has nothing to do with HCPS, just with shape and tricks.

But if the question is: When is the shape less important then the overall strength, my personal view would be around 4 ♠.


Edit: I thought you meant the level of the bidding, I would still double with "all" 19 HCPS hands, I do not know what is modern.

[nick_s]

I believe this style is called an "action double" as opposed to a takeout double. It is alertable. I know of one pair that plays this way, and they err.. rarely trouble the scorers.

As far as non-standard shapes for takeout doubles: I find that making a takeout double with a 4333 14 count works well. I'd be interested to know what expert opinion is on this.

[awm]

It depends on the level of the auction as well as overall strength. Assuming RHO opened at the one-level, I'd normally double with 19+ hcp pretty much regardless of shape, with the occasional exception of a "penalty pass" of RHO's suit. Generally the plan is to make a free bid of my own suit (or notrump) later to show the "power double" type hand. In the 16-18 range I will sometimes double and sometimes bid, depending on how close my hand is to takeout shape (i.e. RHO opens 1♣, I would double on 16 points with 3631 but would need a solid 19 to double on 1633).

If RHO opened with a preempt, then I play doubling and then bidding my own suit as a "flexible hand" rather than as showing a strong one-suiter. In this case a strong suited hand would jump (jumps are strong over opponents preempts) or make some two-suited call. A super-strong balanced hand will either double (if holding 3+ in the unbid major(s)) or jump to 3NT (which is somewhat ambiguous but always shows a good hand).

If RHO opened 4♠ or above, then it's typical to play that double is primarily "cards." It shows something like a strong notrump in values (but should be control-rich if borderline). However, freaky shapes should still bid their suits, so the double is normally "approximately balanced."

[bill1157]

the modern trend seems to be to overcall with very strong hands: i.e. if you have a suit to overcall you might have as much as 21-22 pts. I think the fear that you might miss game by overcalling with 18 hcp and so must double first has been seen as unnecessary in recent times.

Bill

[barryallen]

awm, on May 5 2009, 11:53 AM, said:

It depends on the level of the auction as well as overall strength. Assuming RHO opened at the one-level, I'd normally double with 19+ hcp pretty much regardless of shape, with the occasional exception of a "penalty pass" of RHO's suit. Generally the plan is to make a free bid of my own suit (or notrump) later to show the "power double" type hand. In the 16-18 range I will sometimes double and sometimes bid, depending on how close my hand is to takeout shape (i.e. RHO opens 1♣, I would double on 16 points with 3631 but would need a solid 19 to double on 1633).

If RHO opened with a preempt, then I play doubling and then bidding my own suit as a "flexible hand" rather than as showing a strong one-suiter. In this case a strong suited hand would jump (jumps are strong over opponents preempts) or make some two-suited call. A super-strong balanced hand will either double (if holding 3+ in the unbid major(s)) or jump to 3NT (which is somewhat ambiguous but always shows a good hand).

If RHO opened 4♠ or above, then it's typical to play that double is primarily "cards." It shows something like a strong notrump in values (but should be control-rich if borderline). However, freaky shapes should still bid their suits, so the double is normally "approximately balanced."

TY for the extensive reply. The point this then brings me on to is partners response to any such over calls and the balancing logic in these situations. If your over call can be 18 points and 1633, how small in points can this over call be? Take the classic 2♥ over 1♠, if at suitable vulnerability you can have 6 cards and 8 points up to 19 points, that is a very wide range to cover? Particularly when one of the major factors in making the bid may be for the lead.

I fully understand the logic of partner's actions in a either / or scenario coming out either way, but there is a lot of middle ground where danger lurks?

[mcphee]

I overcall when the idea is to get in a good 5 card or longer major, even with strong hands. The idea is to try and have support for the other suits when making a t/o dble, not to simply show the other major.

The responder treats the overcall as an opening bid and reacts accordingly.

If you have partners that are making 2 level overcalls with 8 HCP, change partners. The 2 level direct overcall genrally shows opening values unless you hold a nice 6 card club suit and they open 1D, the obstructive value of bidding 2C is big and this overcall might be shaded at times. Things vary a bit should partner be a passed hand.

[helene_t]

From 6♠ and onwards I wouldn't be worried about support for unbid suits.

[awm]

Certainly it's conceivable to miss a game by overcalling with an 18-count and having partner pass with 6-8 points. There are a few things to say about this:

(1) I believe it's almost always right to raise with support. I see a lot of intermediates pass partner's overcall with 3-card support and 6-8 points "because we can't have enough for game" and I would definitely never do this.

(2) With about 9(+) hcp I think advancer should always find a call.

(3) The reason these hands overcall rather than double is typically that they are very short in some unbid suit. This means either partner has a lot of cards in this short suit or opponents have a big fit there. In either case, it is likely that someone is going to bid!

For example, with the 1633 hand over 1♣, I've got only one spade. If advancer has six spades or a shapely hand with five spades, then he can bid 1♠ with substantially less than he might need to (for example) advance with 1NT. If advancer has four or fewer spades, then LHO is marked with spade length and might've shown his spades cheaply at the one-level, and RHO seems to have both clubs and spades and is likely to have a reasonable balance (1♠ or double).

Even if we do miss a game on this hand, it's quite possible that opponents have a good sacrifice (or even a making contract) in 4♠. So we might be scoring +170 instead of +100/+200 or something defending.

[akhare]

I don't know about modern trends, but I would be wary of making a simple overcall holding more than 18+ HCPs (unless the hand is exceptionally poor or if it seems prudent to get in at least one suit before the bidding is at the 4+ level on the next round).

Another alternative might be the NTO (NT for takeout) in conjunction with the power X. It seems to work pretty well, but hasn't really caught on for some reason.

[barryallen]

awm, on May 8 2009, 12:14 PM, said:

Certainly it's conceivable to miss a game by overcalling with an 18-count and having partner pass with 6-8 points. There are a few things to say about this:

(1) I believe it's almost always right to raise with support. I see a lot of intermediates pass partner's overcall with 3-card support and 6-8 points "because we can't have enough for game" and I would definitely never do this.

(2) With about 9(+) hcp I think advancer should always find a call.

(3) The reason these hands overcall rather than double is typically that they are very short in some unbid suit. This means either partner has a lot of cards in this short suit or opponents have a big fit there. In either case, it is likely that someone is going to bid!

For example, with the 1633 hand over 1♣, I've got only one spade. If advancer has six spades or a shapely hand with five spades, then he can bid 1♠ with substantially less than he might need to (for example) advance with 1NT. If advancer has four or fewer spades, then LHO is marked with spade length and might've shown his spades cheaply at the one-level, and RHO seems to have both clubs and spades and is likely to have a reasonable balance (1♠ or double).

Even if we do miss a game on this hand, it's quite possible that opponents have a good sacrifice (or even a making contract) in 4♠. So we might be scoring +170 instead of +100/+200 or something defending.

Sorry, thought I had pre-emoted this with my response. Taking this into account, you then run into the more frequent scenario of the over caller having less points and being raised to the 3 level by a partner allowing for more, which a lot of the time can be losing bridge. What ever you do leaves holes but I have never seen a comprehensive analysis of the whole shooting match?

The other point regarding the bid of 2♥ over 1♠, with a good weak 2 opener in ♥. Some partnerships will, others will not? Is there a differential method allowable here between the weak and the strong, or just omit the weaker hand for clarity?

Then the next bit I have a small problem with,
(1) I believe it's almost always right to raise with support. I see a lot of intermediates pass partner's overcall with 3-card support and 6-8 points "because we can't have enough for game" and I would definitely never do this.
I would add to this the question of entries in this hand! Without entries the combined strength will be weakened by leading from the strong hand continually, especially when sat behind the original opener?

I have always favoured competition in the part score but that has it's perils. Defending a contract out of the opponents comfort zone I find gives the defence that bit more focus. Having seen 18 point over calls work out well in certain situations, I have been looking at taking this on board but keep finding these niggling grey areas.

[FrancesHinden]

It is a function not just of high cards, but of shape.

With a good 18+ balanced with stops in their suit, you double then rebid in NT. I don't think this is sort of hand you were thinking of, though.

Failing that I will tend to overcall (rather than double) unless I think both that there is a serious risk we will miss a high-card game and that I can cope with the auction after doubling. That means that hands with short spades have to be extremely powerful to double a non-spade opning first, but with a, say, 2542 15-count I will usually double a 1S opening planning to bid 2H over 3C to show some extras but not a mountain.