[ccw]

In a precision framework

1C 3m shows a 4441 hand pattern short in a black suit (for 3C) or a red one (for 3D)

Then
Openers S1 asks for the shortness bid in steps
so

1C 3D
3H 3S shows 4414



So how does opener set trump before keycarding?

Usually bidding responders shortness is a ask for # of controls but that will not help
with trump honors in particular.

How do folks address this problem?

Thanks

Collins

[kenrexford]

It seems to me that this could be restruictured better:

3♣ = shortness in a minor. Opener can agree a major by bidding 3M, and by doing so asks for shortness in steos. Or, Opener can bid 3♦ asking for shortness in steps with no major fit. If Opener is interested in 3NT only, depending on the shortness, then the answer will be low enough. If Opener takes any other action, the other minor is agreed.

3♦ = shortness in a major. 3♠ agrees spades if spades is not the short major. Responder bids 3NT if it is, or anything else if hearts is short, probably some kind of cue. 3♥ by Opener, instead, asks for the short major with no commitment, Responder bidding 3♠ with short spades, 3NT with short hearts.

In this later event, Opener can bid 4♣ as a relay. 4♦, instead, agrees diamonds. An immediate 4♥ agrees hearts if Responder has hearts and is to play. 4♠ agrees spades if Responder has spades and is to play. Four of whichever major Responder is short in is RKCB for clubs. After the relay (4♦ bid by Responder), Opener can bid four of the agreed major as RKCB for that major. Four of the short major is RKCB for clubs.

So:

1♣-3♣(majors)
3M = fit, show shortness

1♣-3♣(majors)
3♦(short?)-[answer]
[non-3NT](agrees other minor)

1♣-3♦(minors)
3♠(spades?)-3NT(short spades)
4minor(agrees that minor)

1♣-3♦(minors)
3♠(spades?)-[non-3NT](agrees spades)

1♣-3♦(minors)
3♥(short?)-[answer]
4♦(diamonds agreed) or 4[short](RKCB diamonds)

1♣-3♦(minors)
3♥(short?)-[answer]
4M(to play) or 4OM(RKCB diamonds)

1♣-3♦(minors)
3♥(short?)-[answer]
4♣[relay]-4♦
4M(RKCB this major) or 4OM(RKCB clubs)

[Mbodell]

Do you need to know them, or can you infer them? When I play this response system the responder is limited to 8-12 points (and if 11-12 then at most 3 controls). If you have this limit and do the control ask you can usually know how likely a side Q or J is (and you, as the 1♣ bidder, usually have much more space). We play that the 13+ hands (or 11+ with 4+ controls) answer 3♥/3nt/4♣/4♦ to show 4441 with the stiff in the suit immediately above the suit. And usually we are looking at a trump fit of at least 9 cards so trump honors of Q and less are slightly less important.

[ccw]

Mbodell, on May 1 2009, 03:45 PM, said:

Do you need to know them, or can you infer them? When I play this response system the responder is limited to 8-12 points (and if 11-12 then at most 3 controls). If you have this limit and do the control ask you can usually know how likely a side Q or J is (and you, as the 1♣ bidder, usually have much more space). We play that the 13+ hands (or 11+ with 4+ controls) answer 3♥/3nt/4♣/4♦ to show 4441 with the stiff in the suit immediately above the suit. And usually we are looking at a trump fit of at least 9 cards so trump honors of Q and less are slightly less important.

It is true that we can know the partnership number of controls but setting trump has some other advantages doesn't it? Or am I missing something? Two questiosn come to mind

1) If we have 10 or 11 between us is it a trump honor we are missing?
2) How can I ask about the trump Q?

Isn't it normal to count extra length as making up for the Q once you get to 10 combined trump... i.e. with 9 I think I'd still like to know?

[kenrexford]

I'd sure want to know key cards and be able to cue even if I know control count.

KQJx-KQJx on dummy in side suits is two losers.
AQJx-AQJx on dummy in side suits is two losers only 25% of the time.

Kxxx sucks opposite a stiff.
Axxx rocks opposite a stiff.
Opener can also have a stiff.

If I have Axx-x on the side,
I'd rather you have KQJx-xxxx, than xxxx-KQJx --
Seems to work better that way.

I could go on, but I'm sure the point is taken. Setting trumps is useful.

[Gerben42]

Simple solution: Play that anything other than 4♦ and 3NT is slammish.

3NT = 3NT (duh!)
4♦ = End signal, forces 4♥ for signoff (or 4NT quantitative)

[csdenmark]

ccw, on May 2 2009, 05:43 AM, said:

It is true that we can know the partnership number of controls but setting trump has some other advantages doesn't it?  Or am I missing something?  Two questiosn come to mind

1) If we have 10 or 11 between us is it a trump honor we are missing?
2) How can I ask about the trump Q?

Isn't it normal to count extra length as making up for the Q once you get to 10 combined trump... i.e. with 9 I think I'd still like to know?

It is true that we can know the partnership number of controls but setting trump has some other advantages doesn't it? Or am I missing something?
Playing Precision 1♣ opener is captain. Therefore you dont set trump, captain decides the contract.

How can I ask about the trump Q?
Ordinary way or look into Power Precision

[ccw]

csdenmark, on May 2 2009, 08:58 AM, said:

ccw, on May 2 2009, 05:43 AM, said:

It is true that we can know the partnership number of controls but setting trump has some other advantages doesn't it?  Or am I missing something?  Two questiosn come to mind

1) If we have 10 or 11 between us is it a trump honor we are missing?
2) How can I ask about the trump Q?

Isn't it normal to count extra length as making up for the Q once you get to 10 combined trump... i.e. with 9 I think I'd still like to know?

It is true that we can know the partnership number of controls but setting trump has some other advantages doesn't it? Or am I missing something?
Playing Precision 1♣ opener is captain. Therefore you dont set trump, captain decides the contract.



How can I ask about the trump Q?
Ordinary way or look into Power Precision

OK I was not clear. How does opener set trump after (for example)
1C 3D big; 4144 or 4414 2-3 controls fewer than 13 HCP
3H 3S shortness?; Diamond shortness

So if opener now bids 4M that is to play. So my question is
how does opener set trump and still be sure to get another bid?

[kenrexford]

csdenmark, on May 2 2009, 08:58 AM, said:

ccw, on May 2 2009, 05:43 AM, said:

It is true that we can know the partnership number of controls but setting trump has some other advantages doesn't it?  Or am I missing something?  Two questiosn come to mind

1) If we have 10 or 11 between us is it a trump honor we are missing?
2) How can I ask about the trump Q?

Isn't it normal to count extra length as making up for the Q once you get to 10 combined trump... i.e. with 9 I think I'd still like to know?

It is true that we can know the partnership number of controls but setting trump has some other advantages doesn't it? Or am I missing something?
Playing Precision 1♣ opener is captain. Therefore you dont set trump, captain decides the contract.

How can I ask about the trump Q?
Ordinary way or look into Power Precision

This makes no sense at all. In the context of the unusual positive, Opener can't ask diddly-squat unless he sets trumps, as any call call under this theory could be "deciding the contract." OR, you waste too many bids because they might be construed as setting the contract or needed for setting the contract.

I mean, suppose, for S&G purposes, that Responder's first bid was 3NT, and that this showed both minors. If 4♣ is a control-asking bid alone, and 4♠ a plausible answer (would have to be), then Opener only has 4NT as an asking bid before he passes the game level, as both 5♣ and 5♦ would have to be to play.

If, however, Opener could bid 4♣ or 4♦ as the asking bid, and thereby set trumps, then after the same level of answer (4♠ in the former, 4NT in the latter), Opener has the same amount of space available to ask question #2. However, by focusing the right suit as trumps, you tighten the definition for the question somewhat.

Furthermore, by focusing trumps, you allow the partnership to re-define "controls" in ways that might very well make sense, focused on the Queen. If the "control" ask asked for the number of controls, with controls counted as A=2, K=1, TrumpQ=1, which often makes sense, then the control-ask is enhanced only if trumps are known because only then is the modified control count known.

That's a simple problem. Make it a more complicated 4-4-4-1, and both the need for methods and the lack of space to do this without artificiality and/or trump focus increase.

[csdenmark]

ccw, on May 2 2009, 07:30 PM, said:

csdenmark, on May 2 2009, 08:58 AM, said:

ccw, on May 2 2009, 05:43 AM, said:

It is true that we can know the partnership number of controls but setting trump has some other advantages doesn't it?  Or am I missing something?  Two questiosn come to mind

1) If we have 10 or 11 between us is it a trump honor we are missing?
2) How can I ask about the trump Q?

Isn't it normal to count extra length as making up for the Q once you get to 10 combined trump... i.e. with 9 I think I'd still like to know?

It is true that we can know the partnership number of controls but setting trump has some other advantages doesn't it? Or am I missing something?
Playing Precision 1♣ opener is captain. Therefore you dont set trump, captain decides the contract.



How can I ask about the trump Q?
Ordinary way or look into Power Precision

OK I was not clear. How does opener set trump after (for example)
1C 3D big; 4144 or 4414 2-3 controls fewer than 13 HCP
3H 3S shortness?; Diamond shortness

So if opener now bids 4M that is to play. So my question is
how does opener set trump and still be sure to get another bid?

Game is final bid. All other bids are asking. As far as I read you 3♠ by responder means he holds 4-4-1-4, 4-4-0-5. Then 4♣, 4♦, 4NT, 5♥ and 5♠ are all asking.

Normally it is meaningless but 5♦ will also tend to be asking.

[hrothgar]

Gerben42, on May 2 2009, 03:24 PM, said:

Simple solution: Play that anything other than 4♦ and 3NT is slammish.

3NT = 3NT (duh!)
4♦ = End signal, forces 4♥ for signoff (or 4NT quantitative)

Here's a somewhat more complete version of what Gerben recommended:

3N is "to play". Responder is forced to pass unless he has significant extra strength. (If responder has significant extra strength, he'll bid 4♣+ to show controls)

4♦ forces responder to bid 4♥ (Unless he has significant extra strength). Opener will pass to play 4♥, rebid 4♠, 5♣, or 5♦ to set the contract. 4NT is a quantitative invite.

Any other bid sets trumps, while simultaneously kicking off RKCB. let's assume that responder just bid 3♠, showing a 4=4=1=4 hand.

3N = To play
4♣ = RKCB in Hearts
4♦ = End signal
4♥ = RKCB in Spades
4♠ = RKCB in Clubs
4N = RKCB in Diamonds

The keycard order works as follows:

Keycard for four card suits before singletons
Show four card suits in order Hearts > Spades > Clubs > Diamonds

[Echognome]

And just to show that you can play a similar method quite differently. We used to play that when shape was known at 3♠, then:

3NT = To Play
4♣ = "Strong Relay" = Control Ask followed by denial cuebids
4♦ = "Weak Relay" = Bid 4♥, unless significant extra (similar but not the same as the end signal)
4♥/♠/5♣/5♦ = To Play
4NT = Quantitative

Note that there is much less of a reliance on keycard. We prefer to go into denial cuebidding instead.

Also the order of showing the suits suggested by Richard seems awkward. We use "Longest-Highest", so since all the suits are the same length, we would go Spades > Hearts > Clubs.

I've also seen "Longest-Lowest".

[hrothgar]

Echognome, on May 4 2009, 07:33 PM, said:

Also the order of showing the suits suggested by Richard seems awkward. We use "Longest-Highest", so since all the suits are the same length, we would go Spades > Hearts > Clubs.

The ordering that I suggested is based on the ordering of the game contracts

4♥ is the lowest contract, followed by 4♠, 5♣, and 5♦

Ideally, you prefer to be able to stop in 4M or 5m if partner gives a weak reply to your ask. This ordering is designed to facilitate this end.

I don't find it any more complicated to substitute this mnemonic for either "Highest" or "Lowest".

[bob100147]

This is a lot of complexity for hand types that don't come up very often. We play 2♥/2♠/3♣/3♦ as 4-4-4-1 with a singleton in the bid suit. It is much simpler and it lets opener set the trump suit immediately. The obvious drawback is that this scheme gives up 2♥/2♠ to show a 6-card suit and 5-7 points. I never found those bids very useful - they don't come up very often (in part because RHO often bids after the 1♣ open) and there are other ways to show those hands in the auction.