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Is 1♦ - 2♣ game forcing in basic 2/1?
In other words, what does responder bid over 1♦ with
♠AKx ♥xxx ♦xx ♣KJxxx ?
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basic 2/1 question too lazy to search
#1
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Posted 2009-May-01, 07:45
#2
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Posted 2009-May-01, 08:16
In basic 2/1, this is a GF sequence, but you need some mechanism to handle 9-11 point hands with clubs. The most popular solution is to play 1♦ - 3♣ as invitational with 6.
The subject hand is an easy 2N call. Hopefully you play this as invitational.
The subject hand is an easy 2N call. Hopefully you play this as invitational.
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#3
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Posted 2009-May-01, 09:32
Yes, I think that would be GF, however the example hand is an easy 2NT.
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#4
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Posted 2009-May-01, 09:38
Dare I say, it depends on your agreements?
and the result can be plotted on a graph.
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Posted 2009-May-01, 09:39
Yes, this is one of the troubles with 1D-2C if 2C is GF with something like xx xxx Q(J/x)x AKJTx. The hand in question like the others have said can bid 2NT natural and invitational (which you can do too I suppose on the hand I gave notwithstanding anything else). After 1m-2NT invite, might be nice to add in some gadget to locate a shortage in opener's hand so you don't get to 3NT with a suit wide open.
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#6
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Posted 2009-May-01, 09:56
andy_h, on May 1 2009, 10:39 AM, said:
Yes, this is one of the troubles with 1D-2C if 2C is GF with something like xx xxx Q(J/x)x AKJTx. The hand in question like the others have said can bid 2NT natural and invitational (which you can do too I suppose on the hand I gave notwithstanding anything else). After 1m-2NT invite, might be nice to add in some gadget to locate a shortage in opener's hand so you don't get to 3NT with a suit wide open.
Be a man and bid 1♥ with that!
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#7
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Posted 2009-May-01, 10:24
or be a mouse and bid the normal bid... 1♠
#8
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Posted 2009-May-01, 10:56
Tomi2, on May 1 2009, 11:24 AM, said:
or be a mouse and bid the normal bid... 1♠
Wow. And I thought I was crazy. I'd never think of bidding my doubleton here.
I could buy 1NT, because that sounds exactly right, but that seems so mundane.
1♠, on the other hand, is so exotic and sexy that I am mad that I missed it.
"Gibberish in, gibberish out. A trial judge, three sets of lawyers, and now three appellate judges cannot agree on what this law means. And we ask police officers, prosecutors, defense lawyers, and citizens to enforce or abide by it? The legislature continues to write unreadable statutes. Gibberish should not be enforced as law."
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#9
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Posted 2009-May-01, 15:55
It DOES depend on agreements. In my partnerships, this is the only 2/1 bid that is not game forcing.
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Posted 2009-May-01, 21:38
andy_h, on May 1 2009, 10:39 AM, said:
Yes, this is one of the troubles with 1D-2C if 2C is GF with something like xx xxx Q(J/x)x AKJTx.
An inverted 2♦ raise isn't out of the question. Partner will focus on his major stoppers, often bidding 2N (which is probably better than you bidding it). He's unlikely to insist on diamonds without 5, so this seems relatively safe. You won't get to clubs easily, but you probably won't bidding 2N either.
Alternative - open light enough that partner's troubling invitational hand is forced to have more strength/honors and hence be better suited to NT
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#11
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Posted 2009-May-01, 22:17
Some years ago, I went to a local sectional with a friend of mine. We had not played together before, but we agreed "2/1" and talked about a few things, but not 1♦ - 2♣. The auction game up, we got a bad board, and in the car on the way home he informed me that 2♣ in that auction is not game forcing, ever. No way, no how. I still think he was wrong, and that it's something that requires discussion and explicit agreement. He still thinks he was right. 
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Posted 2009-May-02, 03:05
kenrexford, on May 1 2009, 06:56 PM, said:
Tomi2, on May 1 2009, 11:24 AM, said:
or be a mouse and bid the normal bid... 1♠
... I am mad ...
Agree.
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We should always assume 2/1 unless otherwise stated, because:
- If the original poster didn't bother to state his system, that means that he thinks it's obvious what he's playing. The only people who think this are 2/1 players.
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Do not underestimate the power of the dark side. Or the ninth trumph.
Best Regards Ole Berg
_____________________________________
We should always assume 2/1 unless otherwise stated, because:
- If the original poster didn't bother to state his system, that means that he thinks it's obvious what he's playing. The only people who think this are 2/1 players.
Gnasher
#13
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Posted 2009-May-03, 01:38
We play 1D-2C as GF.
With the subject hand we bid 1NT (defined as 6-11), accepting occasionally missing game when opener has 14, but gaining when opener is minimum , and we stop low when only 7 tricks are makeable (not so rare).
When opener is unbalanced 15+ , he will of course bid again.
With the subject hand we bid 1NT (defined as 6-11), accepting occasionally missing game when opener has 14, but gaining when opener is minimum , and we stop low when only 7 tricks are makeable (not so rare).
When opener is unbalanced 15+ , he will of course bid again.
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Posted 2009-May-03, 02:09
kenrexford, on May 1 2009, 11:56 AM, said:
Tomi2, on May 1 2009, 11:24 AM, said:
or be a mouse and bid the normal bid... 1♠
Wow. And I thought I was crazy. I'd never think of bidding my doubleton here...
AKx istn't that much of doubleton for me
#15
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Posted 2009-May-03, 02:24
shevek, on May 1 2009, 08:45 AM, said:
Is 1♦ - 2♣ game forcing in basic 2/1?
In other words, what does responder bid over 1♦ with
♠AKx ♥xxx ♦xx ♣KJxxx ?
In other words, what does responder bid over 1♦ with
♠AKx ♥xxx ♦xx ♣KJxxx ?
1) no one knows.........good point to discuss in basic
2) I play I must bid nonforcing 1nt with your example hand.
If you are going to play 2/1 np but discuss:
1) how junky is opening bid first and second seat
2) what does 2/1 game force promise..example....11 or 14?
3) sorry but i find these other posts not very helpful.
#16
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Posted 2009-May-03, 06:49
Tomi2, on May 3 2009, 03:09 AM, said:
kenrexford, on May 1 2009, 11:56 AM, said:
Tomi2, on May 1 2009, 11:24 AM, said:
or be a mouse and bid the normal bid... 1♠
Wow. And I thought I was crazy. I'd never think of bidding my doubleton here...
AKx istn't that much of doubleton for me
Ah, but I was bidding 1♥ as a Responder who was said to have ♠xx ♥xxx ♦Q(J/x)x ♣AKJTx, if you check.
I'll agfree, though, that AKx would not be a doubleton.
"Gibberish in, gibberish out. A trial judge, three sets of lawyers, and now three appellate judges cannot agree on what this law means. And we ask police officers, prosecutors, defense lawyers, and citizens to enforce or abide by it? The legislature continues to write unreadable statutes. Gibberish should not be enforced as law."
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#17
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Posted 2009-May-03, 12:23
This bid came up in our club last month and we had at leasts ten different opinions on it by 2/1 players.
Intrigued, I volunteered to research it == and consulted books by more than half a dozen pros.
Found half a dozen opinions. None agreed in total.
As a GF, it falls back on partnership agreement.
My usual partners and I decided that 1 D or 1 M, 2 C, 2 anything, 3 C would not be GF.
I haven't had enough experience since then to find out if this really works.
love
joan
Intrigued, I volunteered to research it == and consulted books by more than half a dozen pros.
Found half a dozen opinions. None agreed in total.
As a GF, it falls back on partnership agreement.
My usual partners and I decided that 1 D or 1 M, 2 C, 2 anything, 3 C would not be GF.
I haven't had enough experience since then to find out if this really works.
love
joan
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