[benlessard]

Q64

AJ75

You need 3 tricks but know that east has the K and at least tripleton.


Hidden chart of hands to help you

M= T,9,8
S= 3,2

Spoiler

No_____W_____E_____________Times
1______-______KMMMSS______ 1
2______S_____KMMMS________ 2
3______SS____ KMMM_________1
4______M_____ KMMSS________3
5______MS____ KMMS_________6
6______MSS___ KMM__________3
7______MM____ KMSS_________3
8______MMS___KMS__________ 6
9______MMM___KSS__________ 1

[petergreat]

Let there be 4 cases.

1. 3-3 distribution. So long as you finesse some time anything works.

2. 4-2 distribution. Some time you will need to finesse twice deep.

Suppose East is K 10 9 8 you can finesse at first and win.
Suppose East is K 10 9 x then you're cooked. There is no way to fight against that.
You simply don't have enough intermediates. You only succeed for any East Kxx or K1098.

[petergreat]

Oops. Re-posted.

[rbforster]

I thought the point was to pick up MM vs KMxx by considering hooking deep on the 3rd round. Against Mx KMMx or xx KMMM there's no way to get a 3rd trick vs best defense.

[andy_h]

In isolation, you cannot get 3 tricks if RHO has KT98. If he has KMMx, you can get 3 tricks. Think hard

[miguelm]

Not sure what is this about, but assuming you are asking for the way to ensure 3 tricks knowing what we know, I would play....

5 from hand, intending to play the 4 if W follows low, or the Queen otherwise... etc...

[Fluffy]

Lol

LHO might pop with 93 when you try to intrafinese, and you will have to guess if he's got MM or MS.

This is starting to make me a headache, so I am over with it.

[benlessard]

you have to run the Q at trick 1,
Q,K,A followed by finessing agaisnt a middle card twice. It will win against

M-------kmmss
MM-----kmss
mss-----kmm


its superior to the deep intra finesse.

[gnasher]

Both lines work against MSS-KMM. Each line gains over the other against six combinations. However, the combinations where the intrafinesse gains are all 4-2, whereas some of the combinations where the triple finesse works are 5-1. Hence the intrafinesse is better, isn't it?

[benlessard]

Intra finesse will win with

Mx-----------KMMx
Mxx---------KMM

[gnasher]

Mxx - KMM : both lines work
Mx  - KMMx (6 combinations): intrafinesse works
MM  - KMxx (3 combinations): treble finesse works
M   - KMMxx (3 rarer combinations): treble finesse works

Thus, as I said, the intrafinesse is better.

[awm]

Seems trickier to me. Suppose you are going for intrafinesse, you lead towards dummy and LHO plays a middle card. Now you cover with queen and RHO wins king.

You now have to guess if LHO played a middle card from Mx (in which case you should finesse RHO for both outstanding middle cards) or from MMx (in which case you must play for the remaining middle cards to drop). Note that the double finesse picks up all 3-3 breaks (except LHO with all three middle cards) routinely.

[benlessard]

sorry my mistake,


MMx---------kms

is the gain.

intrafinesse lose to East M, you go to dummy play the Q to smother west M (from Mx) and go again to dummy to...

finesse you win against Mx-----KMMx but lose to
MMx---------KMX.


play for the drop you win with mmx-------kms but lose to Mx----kmmx

its 9 to six 6 in favor of playing the Q (smothering MM or M in West)

[gnasher]

benlessard, on Apr 23 2009, 12:06 AM, said:

MMx---------kms

is the gain.

Good point.

[miguelm]

I guess I am lost.... what is the superior play after all...?

[gnasher]

miguelm, on Apr 23 2009, 03:02 PM, said:

I guess I am lost.... what is the superior play after all...?

Unless anyone else has something to add, we've settled on running the queen, then finessing twice more ("treble finesse").

Mxx - KMM : both lines work
MMx - KMx (6 combinations): treble finesse works
Mx - KMMx (6 combinations): intrafinesse works
MM - KMxx (3 combinations): treble finesse works
M - KMMxx (3 combinations): both lines work (I got this bit wrong earlier)

This assumes that if I set out to play the intrafinesse line, and LHO plays a middle card on the first round, I'm going to play him for Mx or M. Obviously, in the real world one might do something different.