[shubi]

Bergen is very popular among north american duplicate bridge platyers. There are a large number will have nothing to do with it. My question is to those thousands of players I played bergen, I am curious how they are playing WJS OR SJS at the same time as 3d or 3s bergen raise, does anybody cares my solution is simple- i flip a coin YOURS?

[shevek]

I'll take the first guess. Does it involve something like

1♠ - 3♣ = weak or strong with diamonds or a limit spade raise?

Next

[mtvesuvius]

Maybe a system like this would work:

3♣ = Bergen: Limit Raise with Shortness
Tap the table 4 times, then 3♣ = Bergen: Limit Raise with no Shortness
Scratch your left ear, then 3♣ = SJS
Scratch your right ear, then 3♣ = WJS
3♦ = Bergen: Constructive Raise with Shortness
Tap the table 4 times, then 3♦ = Bergen: Constructive Raise with no Shortness
Scratch your left ear, then 3♦ = SJS
Scratch your right ear, then 3♦ = WJS

Although I think it's ACBL mid-chart.

[PrecisionL]

I hate Bergen, the bids not the man.    lol

I prefer SJS (Soloway JS) in the majors and fit jumps in the minors.

Invitational or better hands with 4 trumps go through 2NT.

[rbforster]

I play precision and feel that with sometimes light and limited openers there's less value to showing a WJS than in showing the much more common preemptive raises of partner's major. As such, I play

1H-3m as 4+ card forward-going raises (with 2 strength ranges in the cheaper of the two)
1H-3H 4 cards preemptive
1H-1N-2X-3m as invitational with a long minor

I use some relays to compress the SJS hands into the cheapest jump bid over partner's major:

1H-2S any SJS hand, could be a very strong 1-suiter or a game force with a good suit and 4+ support
1H-2N Jacoby

In spades, things are treated symmetrically by shifting everything up one bid.

[awm]

As seems to happen a lot, my view is exactly the opposite of Rob F.

I don't like WJS in a standard system because opener has such a wide range. If the WJS is supposed to deny the possibility of game without a fit, then the range is something ridiculously infrequent like 0-4 hcp. If you're supposed to be able to bid constructively over the WJS, then you need a narrow range and probably end up playing something like 5-8 which is usually not that hard to bid without WJS anyway.

But opposite a limited opener, there is a very wide range of strengths where you can't make game on power. You can play WJS as something like 0-8 with partner passing unless he holds a fit (or a really freak shape). And there aren't any issues about "what's forcing" because you've already denied game values. So I like WJS a lot more in a strong club system.

As for preemptive raises, I'm not convinced they're that much more frequent than the weak meanings, and you have to limit your range a lot more because the (known) big fit can lead to game on pretty light values (i.e. I'm happy making a WJS on 0-8, I'm not happy with a preemptive raise below game level having a range of 0-8).

There is always the question about Bergen raises of whether the potential gain from knowing partner has 4-card vs. 3-card support along with the potential gain of preempting the auction outweighs the potential losses of playing at the three-level when opener has a dead min and you have four card support, allowing the opponents a cheap "lead direction" double of an artificial call on many hands, and eliminating the space for game trial bids opposite the "four-card constructive raise." My feeling is that in all, the Bergen raises are more or less break even, which is a loss when you consider that the jump shifts could've been used for something else (like WJS or invitational jumps or strong jumps).

[kenrexford]

shubi, on May 7 2009, 12:16 AM, said:

...I am curious how they are playing WJS OR SJS at the same time as 3d or 3s bergen raise...

1♠-P-?

3♣ = Bergen
3♦ = Bergen
3♥ = whatever WJS/SJS they play

1♥-P-?

3♣ = Bergen
3♦ = Bergen
2♠ = WJS or SJS, whatever they play

[shubi]

hi Ken, i thut u are addicted to mini splinter?

[kenrexford]

shubi, on May 7 2009, 02:43 PM, said:

hi Ken, i thut u are addicted to mini splinter?

What?!?!? I haven't played Mini-Splinters in these sequences since the first George Bush was President. Unless playing Mini-Splinters is like alcoholism, where you are never a non-addict but just a non-using addict, then I'd say you are off a bit.

[matmat]

let's do the Bergen again!

[mike777]

shubi, on May 7 2009, 12:16 AM, said:

Bergen is very popular among north american duplicate bridge platyers. There are a large number will have nothing to do with it. My question is to those thousands of players I played bergen, I am curious how they are playing WJS OR SJS at the same time as 3d or 3s bergen raise, does anybody cares my solution is simple- i flip a coin YOURS?

I play full Bergen raises. I do not play WJS or SJS but 2/1 100% game force.

[Lobowolf]

mike777, on May 7 2009, 04:14 PM, said:

I play full Bergen raises.

aka "The Full Marty"?

[lowerline]

I started out playing Bergen: 2NT = GF; 3♣ = 7-9; 3♦ = 10-11; 3M = weak (all with 4crd support). It's simple and most players are familiar with it. I've played it together with 2-over-1 10+ and 1NT not forcing.

Because local top players, who disliked Bergen, were advocating a different approach (and also because I wanted to play 2-over-1 as GF), I switched to:
2NT = inv+ 4crd support; 3♣/♦ = intermediate jump shifts (9-11); 3M = 5-7 4crd support. I've played this together with a forcing 1NT (including 9-11 3crd raise).

Because these IJS don't come up that often, I'm now considering to play:
2NT = 7-9 4crd raise or 9-11 3crd raise
3M-2 = 10-11 4crd raise
3M-1 = 9-11 splinter (GF)
3M = weak
(Over a 1♠ opening a 3♣ response shows 9-11 6♥)
The idea is to combine this with a "semi-forcing" 1NT (denying 3crd support; partner can pass with a balanced min) and with 2♣ GF relay (including GF raises).

What do you think? An improvement or should I go back to "good old" Bergen?

Steven

[mycroft]

We play:
2NT: SI+
3C: Normal invite (go on a Goren opener, typically decent 13 given knowledge of the support)
3D: light invite (go only if you have an absolute max/supermax given... Otherwise known as "I'm pushing for a light VUL game at IMPs")
3M: "partner, you're limited to 15. We don't have game."
4M: "partner, you're limited to 15. We don't have slam."

Clearly 4M is either "5 cards and a singleton" *or* "13-15 support points or so" (and we explain it as such), but that's been standard Precision since 1970.

[rbforster]

awm, on May 7 2009, 02:20 PM, said:

But opposite a limited opener...  You can play WJS as something like 0-8 with partner passing unless he holds a fit (or a really freak shape)... So I like WJS a lot more in a strong club system.

As for preemptive raises, I'm not convinced they're that much more frequent than the weak meanings, and you have to limit your range a lot more because the (known) big fit can lead to game on pretty light values (i.e. I'm happy making a WJS on 0-8, I'm not happy with a preemptive raise below game level having a range of 0-8).

Following up on Adam's comment, I did an analysis for a 5cM 1♥ opening (I think Bergen is most effective in hearts anyway). Conditional on opener having a normal 1♥ hand (fewer spades than hearts, no longer minor), I found the following probabilities for responder's hand types:

shape:       prob:
3♥              29.5%
4♥              15.5%
6+♠, <3♥    5.5%
6+m, <3♥    5.2%    for each minor
7+m, <3♥    1.2%    for each minor

Unconditioned on opener's HCPs (which shouldn't matter too much in precision, especially with light openings), I used the following ranges for responder's strength:

strength      range      prob
weak           0-4      9.3%
constr         5-8      28.6%
invite         9-11      27.1%

(weaker hands will be slightly more likely in practice due to opener's slightly above average strength needed to open, although perhaps this effect is offset by the first opponent passing since we're assuming an uncontested auction)

I didn't take into account the joint distribution of points and shape, but approximated with independent distributions and found the following results:

Bergen Methods:
2H const w/ 3           8.4%
3C const bergen       4.4%
3D inv bergen          4.2%
3H preempt            1.4%

Natural Methods with Weak Jump Shifts:
2H const 3+    12.9%
3m WJS 6+     2.0%    <3H, weak or constr, each minor
3m WJS 7+     0.5%    <3H, weak or constr, each minor
3H inv with 4   4.2%

In conclusion, it seems that the preemptive Bergen hand is about 50% more common than 7 card minor weak jump shifts even with the expanded strength range (0-8) allowed by precision. However, the WJSs become somewhat more than twice as common as the preemptive Bergen hand if you only require a 6 card suit to make the weak jump. At this point I defer to those more experienced with weak jumps as to whether my assumptions were reasonable, what typical WJS styles are, etc. Feedback is welcome.

[shubi]

actually its not big deal, since most of my partners use my cc, i added wjs except BERGEN raises. on a previous cc only for those partners.

[awm]

You're ignoring the effect of opener's LHO failing to act, which substantially decreases the odds of a big heart fit. With a limited opener opposite a weak-to-constructive raise, it is virtually guaranteed that at least one opponent will have the stuff for an overcall or takeout double. This means opener's LHO will act substantially more than half the time. The same will not hold when responder has length in a side suit.

Generally I would make these jumps on six-card suits, although there are some mild suit quality requirements attached especially at vulnerable and when holding two cards in opener's suit. Keep in mind that these hands are a legitimate problem in 2/1, assuming you don't want 1M-1N-2Y-3X to have a range of 5-11. Obviously invitational jumps are an alternate solution here.

Another observation is that it's quite easy to put the limit raise hands into 2NT along with the GF raises. At this point you can make 1M-3M handle the constructive hands. Using this structure compared to bergen:

(1) You gain on the WJS style hands where you now have a potentially annoying call.
(2) You get an additional gain on the IJS style hands because they are no longer ambiguous.
(3) You actually gain on the "constructive 4-card raise" hands by increasing the level of pressure.
(4) You lose only on the "weak jump raise" hands which are rare anyway and made increasingly so by opener's LHO failure to bid.