[benlessard]

Scoring: IMP

---

(2H)-----pass------(pass)-------2S
(pass)----3H---------------------4C
-----------4D---------------------???

You dont play LTTC.

[Free]

4♥, let p decide if he has sufficient extra's.

[petergreat]

4♥ as cue-bid?

[gnasher]

What did 3♥ mean?

[whereagles]

It's not easy to see who's in charge here, but I think it's the 2♠ bidder [us]. Under this interpretation, we invited pard to cue with 4♣ and he duly did so. He has no heart control so, if we bid 4♥ now, he's gonna pass (at least he's supposed to, due to lack of heart control).

The decision of whether to go on or not is ours and we have to decide NOW. My decision is to bid 4♥ because even with KQx xxx Axxx KQx in pard slam is bad.

[effervesce]

We need an amazing number of cards to make slam. I'm definitely not bidding 4♥ - I'm bidding 4♠ instead. The heart values are so much of a waste - i'd only have bid 4♥ if we replaced them with a heart A or a singleton heart with the values elsewhere.

In fact with this particular hand I'd have simply bid 4♠ on the previous round rather than have bid 4♣ - the heart wastage is terrible and shape so-so. Partner is likely to have 3-4 hearts if having the values which could make the partnership have slam as otherwise partner would have either bid or made a t/o double with fewer hearts. If partner has 4, heart lead, heart ruff.

[miguelm]

I believe I have done my share... partner suggested and I went along with the 4C cue.
Now I am bidding 4S.

(not to mention that partner might have a singleton heart... or can't he...?)

[mikeh]

partner can still have enough to make slam a good proposition: Q10xx xxx AKJx xx yields a good slam on the auction, and change his spade Q to the K, and it is a great contract. So I don't think we can give up... but nor can we take control.

So it's the pedestrian 4♥ for me, happy not to be playing LTTC on this auction.

If he bids 5♦, I'll commit to slam... 5♣ would be less encouraging... get back to me if that is his call, 'cos I'm not yet sure

I pass 4♠

[gnasher]

Most of the respondents, and also the earlier auction itself, suggest that 3♥ promised spade support. Am I alone in thinking that 3♥ asked for a heart stop, 4♣ showed a second suit, and 4♦ is one of those murky bids that means whatever partner meant it as when he bid it?

Edit: I might have chose rather misleading wording: I didn't mean that 3♥ demands 3NT on any hand with a heart stop. Josh's wording of "a general force" would have been a better description.

This post has been edited by gnasher: 2009-April-20, 09:58

[jdonn]

gnasher, on Apr 20 2009, 10:22 AM, said:

Most of the respondents, and also the earlier auction itself, suggest that 3♥ promised spade support. Am I alone in thinking that 3♥ asked for a heart stop, 4♣ showed a second suit, and 4♦ is one of those murky bids that means whatever partner meant it as when he bid it?

Yes.

[Phil]

gnasher, on Apr 20 2009, 10:22 AM, said:

Most of the respondents, and also the earlier auction itself, suggest that 3♥ promised spade support.  Am I alone in thinking that 3♥ asked for a heart stop, 4♣ showed a second suit, and 4♦ is one of those murky bids that means whatever partner meant it as when he bid it?

Andy, can you construct a hand that is interested in 3N that a) couldn't bid 3 minor over 2♥, and B ) is too strong to bid a NF 3m now?

3♥ for me promises support.

I bid 4♥ now. I have a maximum 2♠ call and the heart control is key.

[jdonn]

Phil, on Apr 20 2009, 10:34 AM, said:

gnasher, on Apr 20 2009, 10:22 AM, said:

Most of the respondents, and also the earlier auction itself, suggest that 3♥ promised spade support.  Am I alone in thinking that 3♥ asked for a heart stop, 4♣ showed a second suit, and 4♦ is one of those murky bids that means whatever partner meant it as when he bid it?

Andy, can you construct a hand that is interested in 3N that a) couldn't bid 3 minor over 2♥, and B ) is too strong to bid a NF 3m now?

I don't think it's hard to construct a hand that wants to bid 3♥ as a general force. But that doesn't mean that's what it shows.

[gnasher]

Phil, on Apr 20 2009, 04:34 PM, said:

Andy, can you construct a hand that is interested in 3N that a) couldn't bid 3 minor over 2♥, and B ) is too strong to bid a NF 3m now?

Yes, of course I can. Not all good hands can find a satisfactory intervention on the first round. 10x xxx AKJx KQJx or Qx xxx AJxxx AKx. Even if driving game with one of these opposite a protective overcall is a bit of a stretch, it makes much better sense than bidding three of a minor, especially if you play it non-forcing.

I also don't see much benefit to using 3♥ to promise primary support. In an auction where the opponents won't be bidding again, we don't need a preemptive raise, so a direct raise is invitational.

[mikeh]

gnasher, on Apr 20 2009, 10:22 AM, said:

Most of the respondents, and also the earlier auction itself, suggest that 3♥ promised spade support.  Am I alone in thinking that 3♥ asked for a heart stop, 4♣ showed a second suit, and 4♦ is one of those murky bids that means whatever partner meant it as when he bid it?

Consider both frequency and utility of the two possible meanings:

1. if you have a heart stopper then we can make 3N after your 2-level balance, or

2. I have a good hand in support of spades.....

I have trouble picturing a hand that can expect to run 9 tricks in notrump opposite a 2 ♠ balance and yet could not bid its presumed source of tricks over either 2♥ or after partner bid 2♠. I assume that 3minor by advancer would suggest a good hand with a long suit (something just short of an overcall).. precisely the type of hand on which one would want partner to offer 3N with a filler and a heart stop.

While I suppose one could hold a suit such as AKQJxx and out, in a minor, and pass 2♥, so that one doesn't need a filler, this can't be very frequent, so I would rather keep the 3♥ as a solid spade raise... to allow for differentiation between courtesy raises and strong invitational + hands.

[Phil]

mikeh, on Apr 20 2009, 10:54 AM, said:

While I suppose one could hold a suit such as AKQJxx and out, in a minor, and pass 2♥, so that one doesn't need a filler, this can't be very frequent, so I would rather keep the 3♥ as a solid spade raise... to allow for differentiation between courtesy raises and strong invitational + hands.

You hold x AKQxx Qxxxx xx and RHO opens 2♠...

[jdonn]

gnasher, on Apr 20 2009, 10:50 AM, said:

I also don't see much benefit to using 3♥ to promise primary support. In an auction where the opponents won't be bidding again, we don't need a preemptive raise, so a direct raise is invitational.

There is never a preemptive raise after an overcall of a weak two bid. As for a constructive and limit raise, of course both are still needed. Overcaller's range is a little bit lower on the minimum and maximum ends relative to a direct overcall, but it's essentially still equally as wide. So responder will need just as many bids to show support and say we might have game as he would need after a direct overcall, just their ranges might change a little.

[JLOL]

Gnasher I think you need two raises to 3 or else the range is way too wide. I mean I'm sure there are some 7 counts and some 11 counts you would raise wtih.

[mikeh]

Phil, on Apr 20 2009, 10:56 AM, said:

mikeh, on Apr 20 2009, 10:54 AM, said:

While I suppose one could hold a suit such as AKQJxx and out, in a minor, and pass 2♥, so that one doesn't need a filler, this can't be very frequent, so I would rather keep the 3♥ as a solid spade raise... to allow for differentiation between courtesy raises and strong invitational + hands.

You hold x AKQxx Qxxxx xx and RHO opens 2♠...

And partner bids what? 3♥?

No, if partner bids 3♣, isn't this the world's easiest 3♥ bid?

[benlessard]

Scoring: IMP

---

spades broke 4-0 so 5S is down 1 could be down 2 on the AH lead and H ruff.

I think bidding 4C is ok but making 2 slam try is a big mistake.

[sheepman]

Aren't 2(344)/1444/any other hand with 5 hearts 14-16's going to need a "general force" 3♥ Bid?