[nick_s]

Hi,

I really like 10-12 NTs not vulnerable.

The gains from pre-empting the opponents seem to more than make up for the losses due to getting doubled on a part score hand, and occasionally getting too high because of having to use a wide range 1NT rebid.

I'm looking for suggestions to improve the wide range 1NT rebid problem in a standard system. I'm still using the methods I used 25 years ago ... no doubt bidding theory has moved on since then.

Here's the NT bidding ranges NV:
10-12 - 1NT
13-16 - rebid 1NT, 2C Crowhurst is a range and shape enquiry
17-18 - jump rebid in NT
19-20 - open 2NT

Any thoughts or suggestions are welcome.

Nick

[blackshoe]

play 2 way checkback instead of Crowhurst.

[Flameous]

Break the NT ranges to different minor openings. I use
1C = nat/ 13-15bal/ 18-19bal
1D = nat/16-17bal/20-22bal
(2NT being 55 minors or majors)

[rbforster]

As Flameous says, one way is to have a different balanced range assigned to each minor. This causes your minor suit bids to be less sound (2+ suit), but avoids the wide-ranging problem:

1N 10-12
1D 13-14 bal or natural
1C 15-17 bal or natural
stronger balanced hands bid per standard (better minor then 2N, 2N, 2C)

Note that having 1D be the weaker NT range, you solve your rebid problem over the annoying 1D-1N auction. If partner's 1N bid is ~5-10, you can safely pass with the balanced 13-14.

With 1C having the stronger range, you have more space and partner can respond 1D vs 1N to show his range and you'll be able to find the right level.

[jdonn]

I definitely agree with the suggestions of splitting up 13-17 into two seperate ranges, with each always rebid after a particular minor suit opening. The problems at a glance with the system in the original post are:

- The 1NT rebid is very wide. While that can be dealt with using Crowhurst or similar conventions, you are obviously making the showing of your shape less efficient when you must also show strength, and further it won't really matter what you play if opener has a minimum and responder has an invite opposite a maximum (like 13 and 9) since you may already be too high.
- You get higher than the field playing more standard systems when you hold 17, and also when you hold 19 opposite a weak hand.
- The ranges of 21+ still aren't dealt with. Even when the ranges that have to go into a strong 2♣ opener are 22+ it's still hard to squeeze them all in. With 21+ I think it would be nearly impossible unless playing something else, like multi.

All of those problems are solved by, say, playing 1♣ then 1NT as 15-17 and 1♦ then 1NT as 13-14, although of course other problems are created.

[Mbodell]

If you play a strong club you can fit in more as well, although that doesn't fit into what system adjustments you were willing to make. The other alternative is to widen the 10-12 range too. If you play 10-13 1nt and 14-17 1m-1x-1nt and 18-19 1m-1x-2nt you will converge on standard nt auctions for most people, most of the time with only a slightly less robust range.

But really, I think the two different minor openings are probably best.

[nick_s]

Wow! I'm glad I asked. Thanks for the great suggestions.

It had never occurred to me to use different ranges based on the minor opened. That opens up a lot of possibilities.

[TylerE]

Honestly, if you want to play 10-12 (And I think it's good!), just play precision. works SOOO much better than trying to shoehorn it into a natural system.

[pirate22]

another point you shld consider,is an escape mechanism ..... and if u open 1/nt-(10-12) consider, what your pard shld do--also 1n/t-pass--pass x now what is your position having opened 1 n/t(10-12)

another situ you 1n/t--2h/2s by opp what does pard do????????????with say 0-11 points ------ In effect one is opening up a minefield-I assume this would be with a regular partner,there would have to lots of alerts,not conduscive to BBo------------
one might find solace in the Acol Dept of bbo
regards

[mtvesuvius]

pirate22, on Apr 10 2009, 03:47 AM, said:

<snip>
another situ you 1n/t--2h/2s by opp what does pard do????????????with say 0-11 points ------  In effect one is opening up a minefield-I assume this would be with a regular partner,there would have to lots of alerts,not conduscive to BBo------------
one might find solace in the Acol Dept of bbo                 
regards

Why would alerting 1NT and a few other bids be a pain? That is completely absurd imo. I have played a relay precision, a forcing pass, etc... On BBO. I don't mind alerting, and if you like the method, whatever alerting that is necessary shouldn't bother you. Besides, what alerts really are there? Forcing Stayman, typing "NF", and "10-12" and that's pretty much all... So why is this a pain?

Whenever I play a 10-12NT in a 2/1 system, I usually split them into the same ranges as Josh suggested... So:

10-12: Open 1NT.
13-14: Open 1♦, and rebid 1NT
15-17: Open 1♣, and rebid 1NT.
18-19: Open as in Standard, 1m then 2NT. (Note: This can be extended further, to make all ranges except the 1NT opener as 2 point ranges.)
20-21: Open 2NT.
22+: Open 2♣.

But of course it's so much easier to use in a precision system, since now 1♦ then 1NT is 13-15 and with any 16+ you open 1♣.

[pirate22]

of course there is an alert button,the problem arises when either opps do not alert,no recourse,and im not knocking 1 n/t 10-12,
lets have an answers to my questions, ?? esp 1n/t(10-12) pass-pass x!
regards

[Poky]

I play:
1NT = 9-12
1m = 13-16
2♦ (or 2♣) = 17-19
2NT = 20-22

[1eyedjack]

pirate22, on Apr 11 2009, 08:27 AM, said:

of course there is an alert button,the problem arises when either opps do not alert,no recourse,and im not knocking 1 n/t 10-12,
lets have an answers to my questions, ?? esp 1n/t(10-12) pass-pass x!
regards

I think you will have to phrase your questions in a more lucid manner if you want serious responses. I for one simply do not understand the questions

[pirate22]

1 "Lucid manner" pard with a 4-3-3-3 ----- (10-12) s/h/d/c. opens 1 n/t-p-p-x
partner has 3-3-4-3 ----- (2-5) first question
" " 2-3-3-5 ----- (6-8) 2nd question
" " 3-2-5-3 ----- (0-1) 3rd question
lets assume red/non-------------non/red does this alter responses?


Hence "Escape Mechanism"
regards pirate

[1eyedjack]

Umm, if I understand your point, pirate, and I am not sure about that, you appear to be saying (over various posts) that it is important that you have an escape mechanism if you play a mini NT and that it is important to alert it. I don't think you will find anyone disagreeing with that. Minefield?? Not really.

[Gerben42]

The strongest pair with a non-precision system and a mini NT (9 - 12) is Brink - Drijver. They seem to know very well what they are doing.

My guess is that an 1NT rebid in this case shows 13-16.

[Cascade]

Our NT ladder 1st/2nd Not Vulnerable is:

1NT Opening 10-13

1NT Rebid 14-17

2♣ Opening 18-Bad 20

2NT Opening Good 20-22

2♦ Opening 23+

[awm]

An approach that's gone strangely unmentioned is using transfer responses to 1♣ to distinguish ranges. One can play something like:

Balanced 10-12 opens 1NT
Balanced 13-15 opens 1♦ with 4+♦ or otherwise 1♣
Balanced 16-18 opens 1♣ regardless of minor suit lengths
Balanced 19-20 opens 2NT

After the 1♦ opening, the 1NT rebid is of course 13-15.

After 1♣, transfer responses are in effect. Accepting the transfer at the one-level shows 13-15 balanced. Rebidding 1NT (thus rejecting the transfer) shows 16-18 balanced. In competition over 1♣ a "strong notrump double" can be used to show the bigger hand.

This method has advantages over the "weak notrump opens one minor, strong notrump the other minor" approach in that your 1♦ openings will always be a real (4+) suit and can be freely raised. You also get some right-siding advantages due to the transfer structure (i.e. 16-18 balanced hands will declare most contracts just as in a strong notrump system). And opener's 2NT rebid is also completely freed up by these ranges, to be used as a raise of responder's suit or to handle the "bridge world death hand."

[ArtK78]

I have been playing 10-12 1NT opening in a standard structure for quite some time, and I don't find that it creates too much of a problem in constructive auctions when we open one of a minor.

A 1NT rebid is 13 to a bad 16.
A 2NT rebid is a good 16 to 18.
A 2NT opening is 19-21.

Over a 1♥ opening (which can be made on a 10 count) the sequence 1♥ -1♠ - 1NT does not promise any extras. It could be a balanced 10 count (I play a weak opening structure with my 10-12 1NT).

In my opinion, using 1♣ and 1♦ to differentiate strength ranges on balanced hands does more harm to constructive bidding than using the somewhat wide ranging 13-16 (bad) 1NT rebid or the jump rebid of 2NT to show a good 16 to 18.

[pirate22]

ok the subject is opening up, with the subsequent replies-we have not heard from the instigator-----he/she must be getting confused,but alerted to the "minefield"
to "one eyed jack" what escape mechanism do you have to my questions ????
or the instigator what do you use?
regards