[onoway]

This has likely come up somewhere on the forums before but not sure how to find it if so, so here goes again: in a tourney the other day ( a BIL tourney as it happened) we ran up against a multi opener. Neither my pard nor I had much idea ( ok, any) of how to bid around it, so we got into difficulty. Is there some sort of standard way of dealing with this?

[gwnn]

Very simple:

X=takeout double of spades (with a t/ox of hearts you'll come back later)
rest=natural

Simple:

X=13-15 balanced (stops don't matter) or very strong hand (19+?)
rest=natural, not very strong

Multi/multi:

X=2M overcall or very strong hand (19+?)
2M=shortness in this major, like a takeout double
rest=natural, not very strong

You can do 2M=shortness in the other major, 3-4 cards in this one also.

I think I prefer the Simple defence. The problem with any defence is that you don't have a cuebid, so that will make every sequence a little more complicated.

[Mbodell]

The ACBL defense 1 is pretty easy and I think works well enough. The key points are:

X is t/o of spades, 2♥ is t/o of hearts. Over both of these play whatever you'd play over a natural t/o double of a weak 2 including lebensohl if appropriate.

2♠ and 3♥ are natural NF and partner can use the other major as a cue in support of your suit.

2NT - 16-18 balanced, respond with whatever system you use over a 2nt opener.

3m - natural nf

4m - 55 or better in major/minor

passing and then later reopening with a X is weak and t/o, not penalty.

In 4th chair after 2♦-P-2M most things are the same except now X is t/o of the 2M suit, and other bids are natural.

[Tola18]

The difficulty of defencing against multi with a intermediate partner is many intermediates dont understand the mechanics of multi, thus it is also difficult to discuss defences.... Besides, many multiplayers dont explain the bids very well either.

For exemle.
2d - 2h, isnt simply relay as is commonly explained. It is usually also a weak bid...

2d-p-2h-p, pass - ? our intermediate friend must not sleep here, but should reopen with almost any decent hand. As both opener and responder say they dont have anything much, so partner should have about 10 points or even more.


One simple def when not having any agreements is by the simple understanding,
D of natural bids take out. D of unnatural bids is this suit! (btw, lower intermediates often doesnt understand it either.... but that is another story).
All other bids natural.
Not perfect but better then nothing:

Thus: 2D - D = I have diamonds and some strenght, but I may also have something else...
Thus 2d-D-2h- pass, pass - 3C = I have both diamonds and clubs
2NT = I have a good NT hand, heart stopper( of course) and 4+ decent diamonds.

[1eyedjack]

The OP asked if there was a "standard" defence. Short answer is that there are a handful of defences with broadly similar popularity, so no, there is no "one" standard. Not hard to find write-ups of the various methods on offer:

http://tinyurl.com/dbt646

Maybe treat some of them with an ounce of caution. I came across this link:

http://www.swangames.com/help/Conventions/...d/multi_2d.html

where it suggests:
"X = I HAVE 1NT OPENING (ALL CONVENTIONS ON)"
Umm, duh?? All conventions on? They have just taken away stayman and a transfer to hearts before you even entered the auction!
"3C = TAKEOUT"
Umm, duh? Takeout of what, precisely? Clubs? Diamonds? The major that we don't know which they hold?

[Old York]

Multi is a brown sticker convention and should not be allowed in beginners tournaments, it is even banned in ACBL

follow this link for an easy defense

http://homepage.mac.com/bridgeguys/Convent...i2Diamonds.html

Tony

[paulg]

The Multi 2♦ is not a Brown Sticker Convention as it is specifically exempted. Although I agree it is not suitable for beginner tournaments, its popularity means that I don't see a big problem using it in BIL tournaments if they are focused on intermediates rather than beginners (subject to the CoC and full disclosure).

Multi is not permitted in ACBL GCC events, which is the basis of most online ACBL tournaments. It is permitted in Mid Chart events. Perhaps this is for historical reasons as the Multi has never been very popular in the USA, unlike most clubs in the UK who will have some pairs using the convention.

It is not difficult to defend against if you have regular practice. Personally I use gwnn's simple defence.

Paul

[Old York]

Quote from Wikipedia:

"Although it's technically a brown sticker convention (since no long suit is initially known), its popularity and availability of defenses persuaded World Bridge Federation to allow its usage on tournaments of lesser ratings. It is described in WBF Convention Booklet."

Many ethical players hate the Multi because it is specifically designed to confuse less experienced oppo.
Why else would anyone wish to use 2♦ as a pre-empt when holding Spades?.. obviously a 2♠ bid would be far more pre-emptive

Tony

[dicklont]

Old York, on Apr 13 2009, 02:17 PM, said:

Many ethical players hate the Multi because it is specifically designed to confuse less experienced oppo.
Why else would anyone wish to use 2♦ as a pre-empt when holding Spades?.. obviously a 2♠ bid would be far more pre-emptive

Multi let's you use your 2♥/♠ for other weak or strong hands.
That's not unethical.

[gwnn]

Old York, wikipedia is wrong, WBF specifically explains that multi is not a brown sticker convention. I do not understand what is the difference between "is a BSC" and "is technically a BSC".

[hrothgar]

Old York, on Apr 13 2009, 03:17 PM, said:

Many ethical players hate the Multi because it is specifically designed to confuse less experienced oppo.
Why else would anyone wish to use 2♦ as a pre-empt when holding Spades?.. obviously a 2♠ bid would be far more pre-emptive

Tony

And all ethical players consider posts like Old York's abhorrent...

I don't give a rat's ass if you're too hide bound / lazy / stupid to bother learning about these topics. However, your own incompetence doesn't give you the right to imply that players who chose to use a multi 2♦ are unethical.

Perhaps the following analogy is simple enough for you to understand:

1. Many "strong club" players expect that their 1♣ opening will (on average) lose IMPs / MPs when it comes up.

2. These same players happily use a strong club system because they expect that the benefit from their limited openings more than make up for the losses on the "big" hands.

In a similar vein, its entirely possible that the gains from whatever meaning is attached to a 2♥ / 2♠ opening more than outweigh the "costs" associated with opening 2♦ rather than 2M.

If you are incapable of understanding this basic a point, you really might want to rethink whether your opinions have any real value.

[1eyedjack]

There is a case for protecting inexperienced players from complex methods. The jurisdiction and responsibility for that rests with the sponsoring organisation. Within the restrictions imposed by the S.O. anything is fair game without ethical baggage.

Choosing methods that are intrinsically hard to defend against is all part of the game. The gulf between experienced and inexperienced players is undoubtedly magnified when encountering such methods, and the S.O. will take such issues into account when considering permitting it.

However I think that the reality is that when choosing methods that are hard to defend against, most players have in mind the effect on experienced opponents rather than the inexperienced (whom they would expect to beat anyway).

One of the more compelling reasons for playing a weak 1N opener is that it is harder to defend against than a strong 1N, but I don't hear anyone saying that ethical players shun it.

[Old York]

1. In a recent post, many "experts" emphatically denied that the special uses of 2♠/2♥ had anything to do with "Multi".... hoho

2. This is "Beginner and Intermediate Bridge Discussion"

3. The original poster was damaged by the use of Multi 2♦ in a BiL Tournament

My argument was , simply, that it is unethical to use complicated methods in Beginners Tournaments and any other low level events.

I am amazed that such methods are permitted in BiL tournaments, I have never seen any multi lessons in BiL lounge... perhaps one of you might volunteer?

It should have been blatantly obvious that I did not mean to imply that the use of Multi etc was unethical against oppo of equal level (although I have seen many inadequate alerts)

Tony

[P_Marlowe]

gwnn, on Apr 12 2009, 03:59 PM, said:

Very simple:

X=takeout double of spades (with a t/ox of hearts you'll come back later)
rest=natural
<snip>

If you go for the very simple defence

I would suggest: X = t/o of hearts

Intending to come in later with a t/o for spades,
because if the auction goes

(2D(1)) - Pass - (2S (2)) - Pass
(3H) - ???

(1) Multi
(2) heart support, prepared to play 4H oppossite a max.

You may have to face an awkward decision, if your hand is
worth a t/o on the 3 level.

Another adv. is that the X after 2D has the same meaning
as an X after 2S.
The X after 2S is commonly played as t/o of hearts.

With kind regards
Marlowe

PS: We play your simple defence:
1) X bal. 12-14 or 18+
2) direct overcalls natural but being limited to 14/15
3) Pass with hands in the 15-17 range

A 2NT response to X is Lebensohl
If we have bid one major, bidding the other major is the cue

[hrothgar]

Old York, on Apr 14 2009, 02:09 PM, said:

It should have been blatantly obvious that I did not mean to imply that the use of Multi etc was unethical against oppo of equal level (although I have seen many inadequate alerts)

Tony

Sorry, I was working under the assumption that the words you write have some relationship to the point that you are trying to make…

Quote

1. In a recent post, many "experts" emphatically denied that the special uses of 2♠/2♥ had anything to do with "Multi".... hoho

I would be interested in seeing said post. I suspect that you either misunderstand or misstate the points that were being made. Regardless, this is still a distraction from the basic point at hand:

Your direct quote was

Quote

Why else would anyone wish to use 2♦ as a pre-empt when holding Spades?.. obviously a 2♠ bid would be far more pre-emptive

The way in which you are framing the basic question is exceedingly simplistic.

The fact that other people have managed to have an intelligent discussion about this topic does mean that your postings exhibit any subtle nuance...

[Wackojack]

The multi is out there in the f2f world and used by intermediate up to world class players. So get used to it. It only presents difficulties because it generates more bidding options. Thus if you know what you are doing you can have a more effective defence than is possible against a normal weak 2. Either of Marlowe's defence (as a basis) makes sense.

Aside: Happy with Marlow's double as a take out of hearts in 2nd position. Personally I dont see the point of double in 2nd position as a take out of spades because with this hand you can afford to wait for take out of spades 2♠ in 6th position.

[Old York]

onoway, on Apr 12 2009, 09:06 PM, said:

in a tourney the other day ( a BIL tourney as it happened)  we ran up against a multi opener.  Neither my pard nor I had much idea ( ok, any)  of how to bid around it, so we got into difficulty.

In the context of a beginner's tournament and only in this context, I thought that I had made a valid argument

Sorry if my words were ambiguous

Tony