[nickf]

Hi,

I downloaded a bridge application for my iPhone, and among its features are VP scales, which I thought looked wrong, and I wrote to the developer to let him know.

It seems the scales were taken from here which I found after searching "VP Scales" on the ACBL site.

Apart from the columns being misaligned on page 1, can anyone confirm that this data is correct, or otherwise?

And how common is the use of 20 VP scale matches in the US (or anywhere for that matter).

thanks in advance

nickf
sydney

[Stephen Tu]

Yes, looks accurate. 20 VP ACBL scale is ubiquitous in the U.S., used for all competitions from the NABC+ ones to weekend sectional tourneys. Win-loss/30 VP is fairly rare, win-loss more common decades ago. But I think international competitions would use the WBF scale and each country's federation often have their own scale.

[Mbodell]

Stephen Tu, on Apr 21 2009, 10:52 PM, said:

Yes, looks accurate. 20 VP ACBL scale is ubiquitous in the U.S., used for all competitions from the NABC+ ones to weekend sectional tourneys. Win-loss/30 VP is fairly rare, win-loss more common decades ago. But I think international competitions would use the WBF scale and each country's federation often have their own scale.

While I generally agree with the above, most/all of the regional swiss in the last national (Houston) were actually scored on the 30 point scale (both single session loser swiss and 2 session swiss). I think someone said for very large fields the 30 point scale is preferred.

But yes, the 20 point scale is the bread and butter scale.

[nickf]

so you cant win a match 16-14 or 17-13 under this model?

nickf
sydney

[Gerben42]

I think that since the USA has a long history of win-loss events (there are no draws in US sports), and I guess that's why the US victory point scale is so geared towards large victories.

Compare the 30-point ACBL scale with the one the rest of the world uses (for 7 board matches):

ACBL:

5 IMPs = 21 - 9
10 IMPs = 23 - 7
20 IMPs = 27 - 3

WBF:

5 IMPS = 16 - 14
10 IMPS = 18 - 12
20 IMPS = 21 - 9

Which one is more useful?

My guess is that for Swiss, the ACBL scale is more fair, because it reduces the effect of teams winning big and suddenly passing lots of teams on the way.

On the other hand, in Round Robin the WBF scale is much more fair because most IMPs are worth about the same and you just don't get credit for scoring too many IMPs against one team.

[JLOL]

VP 30 is standard in some parts of the country like Texas. For our national swisses we use VP 20.

[gnasher]

The EBU also uses a 20-point VP scale for Swiss matches, but a slightly different one from the ACBL's:

        ACBL     EBU
10-10   0        0
11- 9   1-2      1-2
12- 8   3-4      3-4
13- 7   5-7      5-6
14- 6   8-10     7-9
15- 5   11-13    10-12
16- 4   14-16    13-15
17- 3   17-19    16-18
18- 2   20-23    19-23
19- 1   24-27    24-29
20- 0   28+      30+

[mtvesuvius]

All of Florida (Except Sarasota area) uses the 30 VP scale. All national swisses are on the 20 VP scale, at local tournements it's at the discresion of the tournement organizer.

[jdonn]

Gerben42, on Apr 22 2009, 02:26 AM, said:

I think that since the USA has a long history of win-loss events (there are no draws in US sports), and I guess that's why the US victory point scale is so geared towards large victories.

That's not true. The most popular sport to watch is (American) football, which has ties (draws), although they aren't that common. The fourth most popular sport to watch is hockey, which has frequent draws. The fastest growing sport in popularity to watch is mixed martial arts, which also has draws. And the most popular sport to play in schools, believe it or not, is soccer (futbal!) in which I think about 99.44% of the matches in history have been draws. (Just kidding).

Actually my main criticism of the 30 point scale is that I don't think there should be a major premium on barely winning when you can't even know the score while you are in action. In other words, I think swiss matches are perfectly fine situations in which to allow draws and very close scores. So I do like the 20 point scale, although I would be fine with a 30 point scale if it also included and had reasonable ranges for 16-14 and 17-13.

[TimG]

jdonn, on Apr 22 2009, 10:25 AM, said:

The fourth most popular sport to watch is hockey, which has frequent draws.

Found on the web:

As of the 2005-06 season, the NHL has adopted the shootout to settle ties in regular season games. The shootout is used if the game remains tied after five minutes of overtime.

# Each team names three shooters. If the game remains tied after the three shooters are done, teams continue shooting in "sudden death" mode. The game cannot end until each team has taken the same number of shots.

# With the adoption of the shootout, ties are eliminated from the NHL standings. A team is awarded two points for a win (listed as "W"), zero points for a regulation loss ("L") and one point for a game lost in overtime or a shootout ("OT" or "OTL").

[jdonn]

TimG, on Apr 22 2009, 10:39 AM, said:

jdonn, on Apr 22 2009, 10:25 AM, said:

The fourth most popular sport to watch is hockey, which has frequent draws.

Found on the web:

As of the 2005-06 season, the NHL has adopted the shootout to settle ties in regular season games. The shootout is used if the game remains tied after five minutes of overtime.

# Each team names three shooters. If the game remains tied after the three shooters are done, teams continue shooting in "sudden death" mode. The game cannot end until each team has taken the same number of shots.

# With the adoption of the shootout, ties are eliminated from the NHL standings. A team is awarded two points for a win (listed as "W"), zero points for a regulation loss ("L") and one point for a game lost in overtime or a shootout ("OT" or "OTL").

You're right I forgot they changed. Although an overtime loss, as you point out, is still more valuable than a regular season loss. Anyway they certainly had draws for decades.

[FrancesHinden]

jdonn, on Apr 22 2009, 04:25 PM, said:

Gerben42, on Apr 22 2009, 02:26 AM, said:

I think that since the USA has a long history of win-loss events (there are no draws in US sports), and I guess that's why the US victory point scale is so geared towards large victories.

That's not true. The most popular sport to watch is (American) football, which has ties (draws), although they aren't that common. The fourth most popular sport to watch is hockey, which has frequent draws. The fastest growing sport in popularity to watch is mixed martial arts, which also has draws. And the most popular sport to play in schools, believe it or not, is soccer (futbal!) in which I think about 99.44% of the matches in history have been draws. (Just kidding).

Actually my main criticism of the 30 point scale is that I don't think there should be a major premium on barely winning when you can't even know the score while you are in action. In other words, I think swiss matches are perfectly fine situations in which to allow draws and very close scores. So I do like the 20 point scale, although I would be fine with a 30 point scale if it also included and had reasonable ranges for 16-14 and 17-13.

Mixed martial arts? What is that? How about naked female mud wrestling, does that have draws?

Of course the most popular sport in some countries (e.g. India) is cricket which is famous for frequently having a draw at the end of a 5-day game...

[brianshark]

Regarding sport in general, for me there is something very appealing about the American sporting philosophy of about doing your best to find a winner for a sporting match. I think draws can be such a cop-out result sometimes. In football matches, I hate it when teams draw and both teams go home sort of happy and the result is deemed acceptable. Someone should go home happy and someone should go home sad.

I don't so much mind draws being possible but very unlikely such as in Rugby or American Football. If the teams find that narrow window of equality, then a draw is probably a reasonable result. But I dislike it when, like in soccer, one team can be quite a bit better, but not quite better enough to get that winning goal.

In bridge however, I vehemently object to a 2 imp swing potentially creating a 22 VP swing - if I am understanding the American 30VP scale correctly. I have no problem with limiting 15-15 results to exactly equal imps, but if there is a small difference in teams, a small difference in imps is acceptable.

I understand those two stances are quite hypocritical.

Actually, having re-read my post, I am starting to consider whether doing away with VP scales altogether and announcing resuts of matches as either win, lose or draw is the way to go, even in swiss style competitions.

[jdonn]

FrancesHinden, on Apr 22 2009, 11:15 AM, said:

Mixed martial arts?  What is that?

Wikipedia said:

Mixed martial arts (MMA) is a full contact combat sport that allows a wide variety of fighting techniques, from a mixture of martial arts traditions and non-traditions, to be used in competitions. The rules allow the use of striking and grappling techniques, both while standing and on the ground. Such competitions allow martial artists of different backgrounds to compete. The term may also be used, less correctly, to describe hybrid martial arts styles.

Modern mixed martial arts competition emerged in American popular culture in 1993 with the founding of the Ultimate Fighting Championship. Initially based on finding the most effective martial arts for real unarmed combat situations, competitors of various arts were pitted against one another with minimal rules for safety. In the following decade, MMA promoters adopted many additional rules aimed at increasing safety for competitors and to promote mainstream acceptance of the sport. The name mixed martial arts was coined by one of the developers of these rules, Jeff Blatnick, a former Greco-Roman wrestler and Olympic gold medalist. Following these changes, the sport has seen increased popularity with pay per view reach rivaling boxing and professional wrestling.

[matmat]

keeping with the spirit of things, with a 0 imp difference, the "home" team should get a 17-13 loss. or maybe win, not sure. maybe someone should just toss a coin.

[Gerben42]

Quote

Regarding sport in general, for me there is something very appealing about the American sporting philosophy of about doing your best to find a winner for a sporting match. I think draws can be such a cop-out result sometimes. In football matches, I hate it when teams draw and both teams go home sort of happy and the result is deemed acceptable. Someone should go home happy and someone should go home sad.

If two teams are about the same strength, I think a draw is appropriate, especially if you are playing in a league. Sometimes a draw can feel like a win, sometimes it can feel like a loss. Having 3 possible results also means you need less games to create a fair ranking. Having to force a win between to roughly equal teams is a bit of coin-tossing.

Quote

That's not true. The most popular sport to watch is (American) football, which has ties (draws), although they aren't that common. The fourth most popular sport to watch is hockey, which has frequent draws. The fastest growing sport in popularity to watch is mixed martial arts, which also has draws. And the most popular sport to play in schools, believe it or not, is soccer (futbal!) in which I think about 99.44% of the matches in history have been draws. (Just kidding).

Funny how you put (American) football in brackets, but you don't put (ice) hockey in brackets. I would have guessed basketball is the most popular sport in the US. It certainly is the most interesting one in the top four in my opinion...

Mixed martial arts? I'm not surprised that it's popular, somehow people like to watch person X beating up person Y. I do not. I don't enjoy watching anything more violent than judo...

[Stephen Tu]

Ties in American football are so rare (something like 4 or 5 in the past 20 years, out of probably 4600+ regular season games), that some pro players were actually surprised that they were allowed after one of them happened last year.

Do any other languages have a corresponding phrase to the American "a tie is like kissing your sister" or is that only here?

[jdonn]

Gerben42, on Apr 22 2009, 05:01 PM, said:

Quote

That's not true. The most popular sport to watch is (American) football, which has ties (draws), although they aren't that common. The fourth most popular sport to watch is hockey, which has frequent draws. The fastest growing sport in popularity to watch is mixed martial arts, which also has draws. And the most popular sport to play in schools, believe it or not, is soccer (futbal!) in which I think about 99.44% of the matches in history have been draws. (Just kidding).

Funny how you put (American) football in brackets, but you don't put (ice) hockey in brackets. I would have guessed basketball is the most popular sport in the US. It certainly is the most interesting one in the top four in my opinion...

Because I always call the first sport "football" and I always call the second sport "hockey", but I was trying to avoid misunderstanding.

Quote

Mixed martial arts? I'm not surprised that it's popular, somehow people like to watch person X beating up person Y. I do not. I don't enjoy watching anything more violent than judo...

I think you just answered why football is more popular to watch here than basketball. I personally love watching MMA. It's extremely exciting but not just randomly violent for violence's sake, it is very strategic and nuanced as well.

Sorry I know this is all utterly off-topic.

[Lobowolf]

Boxing, too, has draws.

Just 2 cents for my own favorite sport.

[brianshark]

Another reason: Perhaps having two teams set out to win, as opposed to two teams setting out to "not lose" (if a draw is available) makes for a more interesting spectacle for the viewing public.