[the hog]

Saturday afternoon and bored. I just finished playing in a tournament. While we were playing the TD made the following announcements:
" I want to make it absolutely clear. Psyhic, (sic), and bluff bids not allowed. They are considered as artificial and must be self alerted."

I know we have been through a similar discussion previously, BUT.

1). None of this was mentioned in the conditions of the tournament.

2). Would someone please explain to me how I can alert my own psychic bid?
1H (X) 1S! alert," I don't really have S, I am just telling my pd that I do. Do you want to double me opps? Actually I only have 1S". Doh!!!!

Or better still 1H 3H 4C! 6H" Uh, guys, I don't really have a C control. I am just telling my pd I have one so that when you cash two clubs against us you can laugh at him.

3). To ban psychic bids is contrary to the laws of Contract Bridge, so I don't know what game this guy was directing, but it was not bridge.

OK ok, I know some of you are going to say that I shouldn't play in this guy's tournaments again, and I won't; however the stuation I just described is farcical in the extreme. It is seriously like something out of Monty Python's Flying Circus for those of you old enough, (like Ben and me), to remember them. I told the TD this and his only comment was "They have to get it into their heads". What they "have to get into their heads", I don't know.

Is there anyone amongst the fraternity/sorority of TDs who could have a quiet word in this guy's ear?

(PS I made no psychic bids, much as I was tempted to!)

Ron

[mikestar]

Ron,

I think the way it was done was obscene. Since BBO is not sanctioned by the WBF or any NCBO, the Laws are binding only as far as BBO, or the individual club or TD determines. But any deviations from or amendments to the Laws should be clearly posted in the Conditons of Contest.

If a TD insists on a no psychics tournament, the right way to do it is to:

1. State the rule in the Conditions of Contest.
2. Make psychics illegal--adjusted score if damage occurs, procedural penalty for repeat offenses, etc. The self-alert requirement is nonsensical as you say.

[keylime]

Why do people have such a problem with psychics? Granted, I've never done it - just one of those things I don't like doing, but c'mon, banning then??

[the hog]

Dwayne and Mike,

It is not so much the fact that psyches are banned. If a Td wants to ban them and play a game other than bridge, thats fine by me. Rather it is the comment that they need to be self alerted that I cannot fathom!

Firstly if they are banned they are banned and you can't make one. so why do you need to self alert a psyche you are not allowed to make anyway?

Secondly, self alerting a psyche? That notion is so illogical that the only charitable explanation I can come up with is that this Td is so inexperienced at bridge, that he does not know what a psychic bid is; hence my plea that one of the Td fraternity explain this to him.

Ron

[whereagles]

The issue of psyches has been discussed to death by some of the world's top directors and they couldn't agree on sensible laws for it

Nevertheless, that director's "solution" was pathetic. He didn't know how to handle them, so just ban them, lol.

[Rado]

Hi friends,

Let us suppose that a great athletics 100 meters free run tourney is organised. All the competitors are ready to start run. Then much of their surprise the athletics TD announces: "Dear sportsmen, many thanks for joining our event. Today running is allowed using your left foot only"

Regards
Rado

[mishovnbg]

Hi Ron!
There is no such thing like free supper ... You pay free game in BBO by participate in experiments of volunteer&enthusiast&amateur TDs. Even in such high level bridge club like Abalucy, somebody try to invent wheel again and you can to psyche only if you send message to TD before to do it!!! . Psyches are part of my style, but they are matter of inspiration and the moment - the beauty part of Bridge imho - and instead of boring typing to TD where I will lose my presence at table, I prefer to not bluff at all - probably main target of bridge players that can't understand difference between chess and bridge, as well as between young and old wine
Cheers, Misho

[hrothgar]

Hi Ron

I agree with your frustration regarding the tournament directors who

1. Create bridge events that flagrantly violate the Laws of Bridge
2. Fail to announce this before hand

Like you, I would never chose to play in an event that places an outright ban on psyches. However, if the director is too ignorant to do so, there isn't much that can be done. Personally, my reaction is to ignore the anti-psyching regulation and do as I damn well see fit. I won't go out of my way to psyche, however, I won't deliberately refrain either. Hopefully, the controversy will encourage the director to correct his behavior next time around. Please note: I feel that the director is fully responsible for any resulting problems for failing to announce that a proprietary rule set is being imposed.

I'd be interested in getting more information regarding the Abalucy regulation that psyches must be announced to the Director.

1. Does this apply to all Abalucy tournaments or only certain directors?
2. When was this regulation imposed?

[spwdo]

mishovnbg, on May 15 2004, 06:26 PM, said:

Hi Ron!
There is no such thing like free supper ... You pay free game in BBO by participate in experiments of volunteer&enthusiast&amateur TDs. Even in such high level bridge club like Abalucy, somebody try to invent wheel again and you can to psyche only if you send message to TD before to do it!!! . Psyches are part of my style, but they are matter of inspiration and the moment - the beauty part of Bridge imho - and instead of boring typing to TD where I will lose my presence at table, I prefer to not bluff at all - probably main target of bridge players that can't understand difference between chess and bridge, as well as between young and old wine
Cheers, Misho

hi,

Is it that boring and so much to ask when u private to a td "spych"???????Losing concentration ( five letter word to typ). Td can come to table , check it out note it and thats it.But i guess this comes down to yet another story of demanding a lot yet willing to give nothing.

Fot the rest said here, has been propossed from someone else if alerting psych woudnt be a great idea guess this td dont read the forum.Either u cant handle them/dont understand the concept and i think its better to ban them but this rule is a joke.

If u will be so kind to send me TD username i will have a chat with him just like i did with the other td( he actually coud laugh after we talked) He had obvuiosly heard of psych but he felt one coud not lie to opps with bidding(after he been explained that psych means lieing to partner as well he changed his point of view)

Another case i feel of Td new to hosting without prior knowledge of some basics, all these things are discussed somewhere but like players hardly ever reading rules new tds with a few exceptions are not going to use all work/effort done by other tds(TD_101, minutes of meeting,adjutment clinic, mentorship e. o)

Its all there, why not make it obligated for new tds to go thru some kind of training? Woud stop maybe some fighting between 150 tds finding a spot in europa`s evening while its hard to find a tourney in the US evening(maybe we need some US based TDS and nomore in europes evening(rather less).

spwdo

[hrothgar]

>Is it that boring and so much to ask when u private to a td "spych"???????
>Losing concentration ( five letter word to typ). Td can come to table , check it
>out note it and thats it.But i guess this comes down to yet another story of
>demanding a lot yet willing to give nothing.

Typing the word Psyche is not that much of an imposition, however

(1) This will have a noticable impact on tempo

(2) Having the Director "spontaneously" showing up at the table to note and record the psyche is going to be a dead give away that something is up.

I strongly believe that psyche are part of the game. Furthermore, I have a problem coddling those player who have phobias regarding psyches. Rather than recording psyche, I wold prefer to see directors educating players regarding the actual rules of the game.

[inquiry]

Alerting your own psyches, totally wacky idea.

Telling TD before you psyche, still wacky idea. I think what abalucy wanted (this is a guess, as I have never seen this message), is to track the number of psyches by a player/partneship. And those disruptoing the flow of the event by wildly too frequent psyches or those who pscyh in certain situations way too often that their partners have a much better chance of catching the psyche than their opponents can be "talked too". I suspect all they want is to be told when you psyched (before is not necessary a requirement, but during the hand). Of course I could be wrong. I don't think this is meant to stop psyching.

Ben

[spwdo]

hrothgar, on May 15 2004, 09:23 PM, said:

>Is it that boring and so much to ask when u private to a td "spych"???????
>Losing concentration ( five letter word to typ). Td can come to table , check it
>out note it and thats it.But i guess this comes down to yet another story of
>demanding a lot yet willing to give nothing.

Typing the word Psyche is not that much of an imposition, however

(1) This will have a noticable impact on tempo

(2) Having the Director "spontaneously" showing up at the table to note and record the psyche is going to be a dead give away that something is up.

I strongly believe that psyche are part of the game. Furthermore, I have a problem coddling those player who have phobias regarding psyches. Rather than recording psyche, I wold prefer to see directors educating players regarding the actual rules of the game.

hi,

in a small field like abalucy i woud not like to think that whenever a td comes to a table u woud expect every time he does so it woud be spych.
Further if he comes at all(he can check that baord whenever he wishes even long after that particularry baord is played).
thirdly, woudnt checking all kibitzers out during bidding not be a "concentration &timeloser".
Fourth (temposloser???) How about when u are called to the table and having a discusion about a pysch or a farfeched non alert or falsecarding.

Is easy rule, u make your psych, u send private message to the td before your next turn of bidding, u dont lose pace whatsoever .


spwdo

[spwdo]

inquiry, on May 15 2004, 09:38 PM, said:

Alerting your own psyches, totally wacky idea.

Telling TD before you psyche, still wacky idea. I think what abalucy wanted (this is a guess, as I have never seen this message), is to track the number of psyches by a player/partneship. And those disruptoing the flow of the event by wildly too frequent psyches or those who pscyh in certain situations way too often that their partners have a much better chance of catching the psyche than their opponents can be "talked too". I suspect all they want is to be told when you psyched (before is not necessary a requirement, but during the hand). Of course I could be wrong. I don't think this is meant to stop psyching.

Ben

hi,

thats the main idea, nothing more to it.Keep track off number of psych, trying to get some sort of grip on who/when/why and sorting out illegal psychs.

Dont seek more to it, is a fine rule and it works.

Btw, same rule apllies in qualifiers tourneys, bridge too far, culbbarran, the climb and several others, too long list actually to give them all and this rule is impleted more and more.Sorry to say i came up with it .

Mainly done in tourneys where a some players have no clue and start calling like crazy and a discussion that can last a tourney about these bids, at least we are ahaed of the complaners.

Highere level tourneys do it for the reason Ben pointed out so nicely.

Spwdo

[hrothgar]

[Intro deleted - ui]


From the sounds of things, you are attempting to implement something similar to a "Recorder" system. Recorder systems attempt to track the number of psyches made by different partnerships. In theory, they will "deal with" players who psyche too frequently. I've never seen this system work effectively in real life. I have enormous faith that it will fail in online bridge as well.

Quite honestly, my main problem with such schemes is that they reinforce the belief of elements of the membership that psyches are in some way inappropriate or that something "suspicious" is going on. As I noted earlier, the correct way to deal with these issues is to educate the membership and, sadly, in many cases the directors, that this is a protected part of the the game.

If you are going to implement a recorder system, then at least have the "report" take place at the end of the hand or the end of the tournament.

[Paragraph deleted - ui ]

What Zone are you out of?
What Director trainings have you completed?
How long have you been directing?

Also, in general, the main flaw with recording systems is that they track Psyches but not "normal" bids. What steps have you taken to maintain a database of hands that can be used to judge the the frequency with which people psyche?

At what does a psyche become a concealed partnership understanding?

[inquiry]

Richard,

The tone and some of the content of your message to Marc is hardly appropriate. I think we can all agree that private clubs (like abalucy) and private TD's can run their events pretty much as they see fit. Even Ron allows how the totaly inane rule that you must alert your own pscyhes can be done as long as it is listed in the condition of contest (as well as the every so popular psyches not allowed).

So reporting psyches seems very tame by those standards. And indeed psyhes can become illegal. Controlled psyches are illegal in many places, and if you use the same ones too often, so that your partner becomes aware of the tendency, then an alert is need everytime that situation occurs that says "we frequently psyche this bid in this situation" or the like.

As you are not dealing twith MArc's club's memebers and the complalints he is receiveing about wild psyches or this pair or that pair :cathing" their partners psuhces, you are hardly in a position to judge even the need for a reporter system.

Ben

[hrothgar]

inquiry, on May 15 2004, 04:48 PM, said:

Richard,

The tone and some of the content of your message to Marc is hardly appropriate. I think we can all agree that private clubs (like abalucy) and private TD's can run their events pretty much as they see fit. Even Ron allows how the totaly inane rule that you must alert your own pscyhes can be done as long as it is listed in the condition of contest (as well as the every so popular psyches not allowed).

So reporting psyches seems very tame by those standards. And indeed psyhes can become illegal. Controlled psyches are illegal in many places, and if you use the same ones too often, so that your partner becomes aware of the tendency, then an alert is need everytime that situation occurs that says "we frequently psyche this bid in this situation" or the like.

As you are not dealing twith MArc's club's memebers and the complalints he is receiveing about wild psyches or this pair or that pair :cathing" their partners psuhces, you are hardly in a position to judge even the need for a reporter system.

Ben

I play in a number of the tournaments in question, and, believe it or not, I tend psyche on occassion. In many cases, this leads to an altercation during which some aggreved players tries to win in committee what he couldn't achieve at the table. From my perspective, the "appropriate" way way to deal with these sorts of problems is to educate the player who felt victimized. Case in point, playing in Walddk's 2/1 Individual yesterday, the auction started

P - (1S)

I held (roughly)

xx
x
AKQxxx
xxx

And chose to bid 1N

The final auction

P - (1S) - 1N - (P)
P - (2H) - all pass

The opps made 2H+3 and LHO went into conniptions.

From my perspective, the Director handled this call very well, explaining

(A) Psyches are perfectly legitimate
( Its damn hard to claim concealed partnership understanding during and individual
© Here is how the bidding should have gone to expose the psyche

I agree that Directors have the right to run games as they see fit, providing they disclose these agreements in advance. However, spwdo is going beyond this and promoting this system as the right way to deal with psyching. From my perspective, the structure that he is proposing is actually damaging the playing environment by providing psychological support for the "Oakie"ites.

[bambi1]

Psychic Call - "A deliberate and gross misstatement of honor strength and suit length" (Laws of Duplicate Bridge).

Law 40
A player may make any call or play (inclucing an intentionally misleading call - such as a psychic bid - or a call or play that departs from commonly accepted or previously annoucned use of a convention), without prior announcement, provided that such a call or play is not based on partnership understanding.

Psychic bids are a part of this game, like it or not. As for penalties, that should be clearly stated in the tournament rules.

This is online bridge, TDs can make their own rules for their tournaments here. Face to face is a different story:-)

Most TDs here (certified, or not) are doing their best to provide players with an hour or two of entertainment. Indeed, some are more qualified than others, more tolerant and more knowledgeable. You always have a choice of where and when to play. (and where or when to psyche!!)

Good luck!

[uday]

Concur re: tone. We all have strong opinions on this. These must be presented in a non-hostile fashion, or they must be held back.

[uday]

Law 40 has limited relevance to the ACBL, by all indications, and has even less relevance to us. When we run ACBL games, of course we'll pay L40 all the reverence it is due. In run of the mill BBO events ....

Psychic bids in an online environment can be disruptive and abusive. Between established aliases, perhaps L40 should apply. Perhaps an alias that just beamed in from god-knows-where should not be allowed to do anything funny [ including psyching ] until it has established itself as a good citizen [ simply by logging in a few times , and playing bridge ] .

That is, i think that psychic bidding is disruptive and abusive in proportion to the degree in which the involved parties are strangers to each other and BBO.

Since we dont have such ratings [ 0 = logged in for 1st time from a PC that has used multiple alises, 100 = single alias, logs in regularly, plays regularly, is everyones Friend, and no ones enemy] , it is much simpler to simply bar psychic bidding.


Of course, a TD should make an effort to let people know - before they sign up - that law 40 is not in force, but BBO does not make it easy to do so, even assuming that anyone reads the tourney description at all. And I doubt that anyone does.

Of course, a TD should do what he feels best, as long as his customers approve. If a TD were to run a T in which (say) the club suit could never be bid artificially, more power to him. The customers will decide, over time, as they will over this psyching issue, what they want.

[spwdo]

hrothgar, on May 15 2004, 11:06 PM, said:

inquiry, on May 15 2004, 04:48 PM, said:

Richard,

The tone and some of the content of your message to Marc is hardly appropriate. I think we can all agree that private clubs (like abalucy) and private TD's can run their events pretty much as they see fit. Even Ron allows how the totaly inane rule that you must alert your own pscyhes can be done as long as it is listed in the condition of contest (as well as the every so popular psyches not allowed).

So reporting psyches seems very tame by those standards. And indeed psyhes can become illegal. Controlled psyches are illegal in many places, and if you use the same ones too often, so that your partner becomes aware of the tendency, then an alert is need everytime that situation occurs that says "we frequently psyche this bid in this situation" or the like.

As you are not dealing twith MArc's club's memebers and the complalints he is receiveing about wild psyches or this pair or that pair :cathing" their partners psuhces, you are hardly in a position to judge even the need for a reporter system.

Ben

I play in a number of the tournaments in question, and, believe it or not, I tend psyche on occassion. In many cases, this leads to an altercation during which some aggreved players tries to win in committee what he couldn't achieve at the table. From my perspective, the "appropriate" way way to deal with these sorts of problems is to educate the player who felt victimized. Case in point, playing in Walddk's 2/1 Individual yesterday, the auction started

P - (1S)

I held (roughly)

xx
x
AKQxxx
xxx

And chose to bid 1N

The final auction

P - (1S) - 1N - (P)
P - (2H) - all pass

The opps made 2H+3 and LHO went into conniptions.

From my perspective, the Director handled this call very well, explaining

(a) Psyches are perfectly legitimate
( Its damn hard to claim concealed partnership understanding during and individual
© Here is how the bidding should have gone to expose the psyche

I agree that Directors have the right to run games as they see fit, providing they disclose these agreements in advance. However, spwdo is going beyond this and promoting this system as the right way to deal with psyching. From my perspective, the structure that he is proposing is actually damaging the playing environment by providing a psychological crutch for the "Oakie"ites.

hi,

I dont have any critics on how this was handled or this bid in particuallary.
Again i dont see a harm in informing a td when u spych besides the fact there is something to hide.

Questioning my crediantials is fine, not defending myself on this one.

I have had calls from players(damaged from a psych) asking an adjust when a spych gone wrong and "damaged" players had a perfect result.
Calls from players insisting an alert of a psych since it wasnt natural,long discussions and so on.Very helpfull it is when u saw bid in an aerlier stage before u are called to the table when a fight is going on.
It doesnt change a thing about the frequentcy or use about psych bids except maybe those doing this very very frequent become maybe somewhat cautios.
Think most agree a spych isnt a spych anymore when partner is aware of what is going on.
Example 2♣ opener 2♦ p p(with close to opening hand and 5+♦) happend twice in same tournament, looked up prevuios baords of those players and it happend again(other bid but similar in a way) in another tourney where after the "psch" p with support jumped , was dbl and they went down terrible.

Im not suggesting it shoud be alerted,banned. ITs fun part of the game,i use these bids when i think there coud be a gain from it, i just inform td with a private mess.
I like to be informed so i can learn along the way when others bid this and why,how can u improve knowledge when u dont know what is going on.

This is very difficult area to be always right.
Whenever a complain is coming up i always start with "spych bids are a perfectly ligit part of the game as long as u lie to the whole table and not only to opps"

Guess no td has ever ruled against a pysch in an indy(again i can be wrong).
Till today i only ruled twice against psychbidders and they agreed in both cases it was illegal themselves.

Marc