[Chamaco]

Hi all !


With my teammates we are experimenting a version of Precision including mini-1NT (13-15 bal are included in 1D together with unbalanced with D).

Anyways, we are having a hard time coping with opps intereferences at MP pairs, often failing to compete for the partscore.

Below are listed our doubts, I'll be grateful to any contribution by players that had experience playing miniNT !

Thanks !!!

Mauro

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1) Assume for the rest of the discussion that 1NT 10-12 is opened in first or second seat only (I know 3rd seat miniNT has other issues).

2) We have agreed, after opps overcall, to play a Lebensohl stile:

• 2 of a suit= weak, to play
  
• 2NT= relay to 3C; may conceal a weak signoff in suit lower ranked than overcalller's or a stronger hand (GF with a stopper or invitational)
  
• 3 of a suit = natural GF
  
• Dbl/Rdbl = penalty

What is the problem ?
The problem arises when responder has some 8+/10- hcp opposite 10-12 opener, and the balance of HCP is about even between N-S and E-W.

Often opps overcall (sometimes even recklessly), say
1NT-(2D)-?

and you hold: KQTx-Axxx-xxx-xx.

You'd love to have the negative double available, but you don't, playing Lebensohl.

We have discussed this issue with pards, and only ideas that came about were:

a ) having opener reopen "in the dark", holding a small doubleton in the overcaller suit if for instance bidding goes 1NT-2D-p-p- ?
This is very risky in my opinion: miniNT is used to have OPPONENTS bid in the dark with the risk of being doubled; if you resort to "automatic" reopening, in the dark (pard may have a few hcp), you will fall for the same trap you tried and set to opps;

b ) eliminating penalty double from the lebensohl scheme: double will be negative, showing a good hand (9+/10 hcp or better), with at least 4-3 in the unbid majors.
This has the obvious shortcoming of being unable to double reckless opponents (one of the reasons you chose to play miniNT in the first place)

I am well aware of the motto that "NT openings bury fits", and I did read Rodwell's interview where he addresses the issues of losing 4-4 partscores.

So my question to those who tried to play at least once the miniNT then becomes:
which option is the least of evil accoding to you ?

1) option a) above: opener should reopen in the dark with xx in opps suit;
2) option b above: yes Lebensohl, no penalty double, yes negative double
3) do not use Lebensohl but a better scheme for responder
4) use this scheme (Lebensohl+ penalty double+ no reopening obligations) and accept the fact that losing fit is unavoidable once in a while using this NT range
5) change NT range at least at Matchpoints pairs

[whereagles]

I play mini a NT 9-11. Been playing it for more than 5 years now.

My experience tells me that penalty doubles don't work very well. An overcall on the 1NT usually shows 8-12 points (with more double first), so point split is likely to be 10-10-10-10 and the board is a part-score. You'll need every bid available to look for the best contract, so forget about doubling them and use double as take-out.

[1eyedjack]

I don't understand why you (Chamaco) say that "negative" (by which I assume you mean takeout) doubles are denied you when you play Lebensohl. The issues are pretty much independent of each other. I think it makes sense to play takeout doubles (in either seat) after an overcall over our 1NT, regardless of the strength of our 1NT opener, and regardless of what other mechanisms you use.

Furthermore you can use Lebensohl in response to partner's double, although if opener is the one doubling then perhaps it is more useful to show two playable lower ranking suits. I prefer Lebensohl even in this position, as you are better placed deciding what to do over their 3-suit if tbey bid it.

Personally I use Lebensohl a lot, but ironically not in the one classical situation for which it was designed, ie 2N by responder after overcall over 1N. I prefer:

2N = transfer to Diamonds
3C = transfer to Hearts
3D = "Stayman" (with a guard - start with takout X then cue without guard)
3H = transfer to Spades.
3S = Clubs
3N = opponent's suit guarded, no interest in unbid major (without guard start with X then 3N)

A transfer into opponent's suit also shows Clubs (but weaker than 3S, although obviously still strong enough to compete to the next bid in Clubs).

The 2-step transfers allow you to show all 3 possible hand strengths (weak, invite or strong) in the absence of further competition. If you get further competition then there is an element of guesswork, but in that event I would rather be guessing when I know what partner's suit is (strength unknown) then when I know what partner's strength is (suit unkown) as is the case with classical Lebensohl after 2N.

You only have a 1-step transfer to 3S, but that promises a game try (2S guaranteed available if weak).

[Chamaco]

1eyedjack, on May 19 2004, 01:07 PM, said:

--- cut --

Personally I use Lebensohl a lot, but ironically not in the one classical situation for which it was designed, ie 2N by responder after overcall over 1N.  I prefer:

--- cut --

Thanks for the reply, but I think I am getting lost in all of this stuff.

1) I want to avoid transfer responses when opener is 10-12; it is very important to be able to stay at the 2 level with a minor

2) would you agree with a scheme such the one as follow ?

1N-(2y)-?

- 2 of a suit = to play
- 2NT = classical lebensohl = relay to 3C, either to pass/correct or to show a good hand (various types, generally with a stopper)
- 3 of a suit = natural 5+ cards, GF
- cuebid = stayman for a major without stopper (the same with stopper wd be 2NT then cuebid)
- 3NT = game force without stopper (the same with stopper wd be 2NT then 3NT)

- X-XX = takeout double = most of the times a decent hand but not game force (with gf hand with a side major, cuebid with or without going through 2NT; with balanced gf, bid 3NT with or without going through 2NT; with unbalanced gf hand, bid the suit at 3 level)
- if you use takeout double by responder, is there a case for a trap pass by responder who wants to punish opponents ? In that case, opener may have trouble decidening on which hand to reopen for a pard to penalty pass: if he reopens anytime he has a small doubleton, many times he will find his partner short of hcp, having to bid at the 2 or 3 level, and being doubled

[Flame]

I would give up the penalty double, its not very common after you open 10-12, but even more importent, your 10-12 NT is a kind of premptive, your opponents if they are smart will play constractive overcalls on it, unlike after strong NT they now have alot to lose if they miss geting to games, so their overcalls rates to be good.

[luis]

I like the negative double approach for a weak NT.

1N - 2x - dbl : Takeout
1N - 2x - pass : Can be a trap pass (opener reopens with doubleton or xxx in the suit)

But if you are really serious and want to play the best countersystem you must prepare specific responses for each possible 2x bid by the opponents, you will find the optimal system is different for each bid.

[Chamaco]

luis, on May 19 2004, 02:20 PM, said:

But if you are really serious and want to play the best countersystem you must prepare specific responses for each possible 2x bid by the opponents, you will find the optimal system is different for each bid.

Sure Luis, I am aware of that.
But before getting into detailed defenses vs 2-suited bids or concealed one suited hans, we realy need to understand how to defend vs natural overcalls hence this post...

About reopening with xx or xxx in opps suit:
would you reopen also with a dead minimum 10 count ?
is it not too dangerous to reopen even with a max (given xx/xxx in overcaller's suit) when pard can have little to contribute (he failed to make a negative double himself) ?

[luis]

Chamaco, on May 19 2004, 02:32 PM, said:

luis, on May 19 2004, 02:20 PM, said:

But if you are really serious and want to play the best countersystem you must prepare specific responses for each possible 2x bid by the opponents, you will find the optimal system is different for each bid.

Sure Luis, I am aware of that.
But before getting into detailed defenses vs 2-suited bids or concealed one suited hans, we realy need to understand how to defend vs natural overcalls hence this post...

About reopening with xx or xxx in opps suit:
would you reopen also with a dead minimum 10 count ?
is it not too dangerous to reopen even with a max (given xx/xxx in overcaller's suit) when pard can have little to contribute (he failed to make a negative double himself) ?

The negative double must show some values.
The reopening double can lead to trouble: yes but it doesn't happen very often.
Knowing that opener has 2 cards in the opps suit can help responder to find an escape when his pass wasn't a penalty pass.
If you are using the mini-nt in 1st/2nd positions NV the risk is minimal because when they do have the values to penalize you they frequently have the values to bid game and advancer won't pass the overcall because it is just too dangerous. So when advancer passes then pd has a penalty pass ot the points are distributed more or less evenly between the two sides.

[1eyedjack]

Chamaco, on May 19 2004, 08:40 AM, said:

1eyedjack, on May 19 2004, 01:07 PM, said:

--- cut --

Personally I use Lebensohl a lot, but ironically not in the one classical situation for which it was designed, ie 2N by responder after overcall over 1N.  I prefer:

--- cut --

Thanks for the reply, but I think I am getting lost in all of this stuff.

1) I want to avoid transfer responses when opener is 10-12; it is very important to be able to stay at the 2 level with a minor

I do not understand this objection. Although I did not specify it, a bid by responder of 2 of a suit (over the intervention) is to play. You are only compelled to transfer (if you choose to bid at all) if your suit is lower ranking than the opponents' ... and then you do not have the option of playing in 2 of that suit in any method - it would be an insufficient bid! Yes you can transfer into Spades at the 3 level (higher ranking than opponent's suit), but that promises at least a game try as you also have available a natural (competitive) bid of 2S.

The only time that Lebensohl allows you to play at the *3* level where my method does not, is when responder has Clubs and the opponents have overcalled in Spades. I can live with that loss. By contrast, Lebensohl only permits you to distinguish two ranges of values in a lower ranking suit: Forcing and non-forcing. As a partnership you have to agree on just how encouraging the non-forcing bid is (ie does it show any game interest). But whatever you agree on you lose on the other range. In my suggested method you get to show 3 ranges (in suits other than Clubs): Game forcing, invitational and weak (assuming the opponents don't bid again).

I would just add that a take-out double by responder only promises competitive values. As opener can use Lebensohl in response to distinguish between min v max a game can still be investigated should responder happen to have genuine game interest.

As opener I tend to reopen liberally with a double when holding a doubleton in the opponent's suit. Although I tend to play 12-14 opener, I do not think that the range of the 1N opener is relevant to this strategy, unless (a) you suspect advancer as being capable of making a psychic trap pass with values for a game try or (b) you suspect the opponents to be incompetent to investigate game when their combined values so indicate. If neither of those conditions are satisfied, and LHO has been unable to double your 1N initially, you can safely assume that partner has values, and his silence is likely to be explained by a lack of appropriate distribution for a safe take-out double in direct seat over the overcall.

But yes, at the end of the day, whether opener should reopen with a double takes some table presence. If your side is vulnerable and the opponents are not, then responder can take some pressure off the situation by game forcing directly over the overcall when he might be interested in making a penalty double. Anyway you are better off than playing penalty double in direct seat and forced pass in protective seat.

[keylime]

Playing penalty doubles over a 10-12 is a recipe for problems, especially when 3rd seat is sitting on a 9-11 count of their own. This issue occurred recently at the local sectional when LHO felt that I "stole" her bid with 1NT. She doubled, the lovely Mrs. passed, 2♣ by RHO, pass, 2NT by LHO, a thunderous CRACK of a double, swish for a cold 800 our way.

Frankly a penalty double their should be showing at least a great 16 count to protect partner's runout.

Furthermore, runouts are important - I'd use a set of runouts that are similar to your NT defense to save memory space, unless you're a dedicated pairing. For the record, we use DONT runouts just for the memory savings it offered over Gupta runouts. Simple is best a lot of the time at this complex game.

[1eyedjack]

keylime, on May 19 2004, 04:17 PM, said:

Playing penalty doubles over a 10-12 is a recipe for problems, especially when 3rd seat is sitting on a 9-11 count of their own. This issue occurred recently at the local sectional when LHO felt that I "stole" her bid with 1NT. She doubled, the lovely Mrs. passed, 2♣ by RHO, pass, 2NT by LHO, a thunderous CRACK of a double, swish for a cold 800 our way.

You may be right. That argument will continue on down the ages in threads in this forum and elsewhere for a long time to come. But it *may* be a fallacy to hold up this example as an illustration of the flaw in the double. It *could* just be a flaw in the decision to follow it up with a bid of 2N, attempting to make 8 tricks in NT after partner's 2C bid alerts you to the fact that you probably cannot make 7 tricks in NT in defence.

[Free]

The way I'm used to play is 1NT-(2m)-Pass is forcing for one round. This gives the opportunity to find 4-4 fits in a Major, to play something doubled, and to make a takeout double of your own. This is very useful, especially after a 2♦ intervention. Also as Luis pointed out, you should use different defenses against different meanings of overcalls, but this forcing-pass is something which comes back almost all the time This is however used with a 11-14 and 10-13 NT, as well as 15-17, and it hasn't given me any problems so far. The theoretical problem is that you'll re-enter the auction when we have nothing to play...

[whereagles]

Also taking up on what Luis said, if you want precision on these bidding sequences, you have to do a bit of homework. You have to think what to do if...

1NT X - where dbl not penalty, but some kind of 1- or 2-suiter
1NT 2y - where 2y shows an unspecified 1- or 2-suiter
1NT 2y - where 2y is a transfer
1NT 2y - where 2y shows a 2-suiter with 1 or 2 anchor suits
1NT 2♣ - regardless what 2♣ is
1NT p p X - how do you escape 1NT doubled now

There's a lot to be done, but when it's done and you and pard know what you're doing, the mini NT will become an even more enjoyable convention

[Trpltrbl]

I have played weak NT for many years, and I have never run into this problem.
Seems nobody plays natural against weak NT's, so I just pass with your given hand and X later. Showing the 8-10 hcp point balanced hand.

Mike