[FrancesHinden]

If you use 4S - 4NT - (something) - 5H to show a good 5H overcall, what do you do on a 1516 type hand? I use a 4NT overcall to show any two suits, and I thought everyone else did too...

(4S - 4NT - P - 5C - P - 5H certainly shows extras, but it's not obvious to me that it shows a single suiter)

[the hog]

FrancesHinden, on Apr 4 2009, 05:36 PM, said:

If you use 4S - 4NT - (something) - 5H to show a good 5H overcall, what do you do on a 1516 type hand? I use a 4NT overcall to show any two suits, and I thought everyone else did too...

(4S - 4NT - P - 5C - P - 5H certainly shows extras, but it's not obvious to me that it shows a single suiter)

I'd say it shows a big hand forcing to slam in H or a minor.

[gnasher]

FrancesHinden, on Apr 4 2009, 11:36 AM, said:

If you use 4S - 4NT - (something) - 5H to show a good 5H overcall, what do you do on a 1516 type hand?  I use a 4NT overcall to show any two suits, and I thought everyone else did too...

(4S - 4NT - P - 5C - P - 5H certainly shows extras, but it's not obvious to me that it shows a single suiter)

No meaning is obvious unless you have an agreement about it.

The idea is that 4NT-5♣;5♥ is a one-suited slam try, but 4NT-5♦;5♥ is ambiguous. In the latter case advancer assumes hearts and clubs, and the 4NT bidder doesn't get to show his slam try. As he wouldn't have been able to show a slam try by bidding 5♥ directly, the argument is that he's no worse off than he would have been.

There are plenty of other ways to show a slam-forcing two-suiter, so the sequence 4NT-5♣;5♥ isn't really needed for anything else.

The main disadvantage of this approach is that advancer may misjudge over further competition. Also, he can't drive slam because he knows of a good fit in one of the minors.

[OleBerg]

gnasher, on Apr 4 2009, 12:18 PM, said:

OleBerg, on Apr 4 2009, 09:39 AM, said:

If next hand bids 5♠, you are in trouble, if 4NT is a two-way bid. But it is not likely.

Why isn't it likely?

Depends what "likely" means.
I prefer 4Nt to be an unambigous two-suiter, because of the "few" times next hand raises.

[jdonn]

The fear of partner bidding 5♦ and not knowing that you are good with hearts as opposed to hearts and clubs is unfounded (Jlall taught me!). You can just bid 5♥ anyway since partner already said he prefers hearts to clubs, or you can use the info of that preference to bid 6♥ instead, but in either case you are no worse off.

The fear of next hand bidding 5♠ is a bit more relevant, but either you can guess to bid 6♥ which presumably your hand is not far short of anyway, or you can double and most likely defend 5♠x which should generally turn out ok.

[JLOL]

Results: I bid an insta 6 and it made. I think it depends a lot on your partner, with my dad I'd probably pass.

[tomb3113]

I think passing is pretty sick at imps. Sacrificing with no remote shot at making at IMPs is a terrible strategy. I would bid 5S.

At mp i understand that partner can take a pretty wild stab at a sacrifice but still way too strong to pass.

[kfay]

tomb3113, on Apr 7 2009, 10:42 AM, said:

I would bid 5S.

This would be a mistake becaue it shows a 1st round ♠ control. A better bid would be 5NT.

[mikeh]

jdonn, on Apr 4 2009, 12:12 PM, said:

The fear of partner bidding 5♦ and not knowing that you are good with hearts as opposed to hearts and clubs is unfounded (Jlall taught me!). You can just bid 5♥ anyway since partner already said he prefers hearts to clubs, or you can use the info of that preference to bid 6♥ instead, but in either case you are no worse off.

The fear of next hand bidding 5♠ is a bit more relevant, but either you can guess to bid 6♥ which presumably your hand is not far short of anyway, or you can double and most likely defend 5♠x which should generally turn out ok.

I don't understand... must be my advancing age.

We are discussing 2 hand types, which seem to me to be quite different.

On one we have a hand too good to overcall 5♥: a monster 1-suiter, with strong slam ambitions in hearts.

On the other, we have a 2-suiter, which we will for now assume is clubs and hearts, and partner bids 5♦.


Yes, 5♦ says that he prefers hearts over clubs, should we hold the round suits, but it says absolutely NOTHING about whether he LIKES anything.. we held a gun to his head and made him express a preference, nothing more. Ok, doesn't matter immediately... presumably he gets another chance after we clarify our holding by bidding 5[H].

Ooops.... we bid 5♥, and somehow he is supposed to know when this is a strong slam try one-suiter, or a minimum rounded 2-suiter? Do we do this by varying our tempo, or by using smoke signals?

I suppose a lot depends on the minimums we will hold for the two-suiter compared to the power one-suiter... but I am aggressive with 2-suiters, since we have a decent chance of a playable fit when RHO shows approximately 8 cards in his suit, and 4N often leads to a good save even when we go down.

In that case, there is one heck of a difference between the power one suiter, nearly worth a 6♥ call over 4♠ and the correction to 5♥ hoping it makes. I just don't see how partner is supposed to know when to move.

Am I missing something?

BTW, I already didn't like the idea because of the risk of a raise to 5♠.

[kfay]

mikeh, on Apr 7 2009, 11:50 AM, said:

jdonn, on Apr 4 2009, 12:12 PM, said:

You can just bid 5♥ anyway since partner already said he prefers hearts to clubs, or you can use the info of that preference to bid 6♥ instead, but in either case you are no worse off.

I don't understand... must be my advancing age.

Not having pioneered this method I'd venture to say that the key idea is bolded.

How does partner know to raise ♥ if we just bid 5♥ since it could be with 8 hearts and could be with a powerhouse w/ 6 hearts?

[jdonn]

mikeh, on Apr 7 2009, 11:50 AM, said:

jdonn, on Apr 4 2009, 12:12 PM, said:

The fear of partner bidding 5♦ and not knowing that you are good with hearts as opposed to hearts and clubs is unfounded (Jlall taught me!). You can just bid 5♥ anyway since partner already said he prefers hearts to clubs, or you can use the info of that preference to bid 6♥ instead, but in either case you are no worse off.

The fear of next hand bidding 5♠ is a bit more relevant, but either you can guess to bid 6♥ which presumably your hand is not far short of anyway, or you can double and most likely defend 5♠x which should generally turn out ok.

I don't understand... must be my advancing age.

I'll be clearer gramps.

Let's say that if partner bids 5♦ over your 4NT and you hold a strong single-suited slam try with hearts, you decide to always bid 5♥. It's true partner doesn't know whether you have hearts and clubs, or just hearts. However, you are absolutely no worse off than if you weren't including such hands in the 4NT bid to begin with and were thus simply overcalling 5♥ on them, because there are few/very few/no hands where partner would correctly raise you on one auction but not the other.

But in actuality you are still better off, since now the direct 5♥ is more informative.

[mikeh]

kfay, on Apr 7 2009, 11:56 AM, said:

mikeh, on Apr 7 2009, 11:50 AM, said:

jdonn, on Apr 4 2009, 12:12 PM, said:

You can just bid 5♥ anyway since partner already said he prefers hearts to clubs, or you can use the info of that preference to bid 6♥ instead, but in either case you are no worse off.

I don't understand... must be my advancing age.

Not having pioneered this method I'd venture to say that the key idea is bolded.

How does partner know to raise ♥ if we just bid 5♥ since it could be with 8 hearts and could be with a powerhouse w/ 6 hearts?

Your point is well-taken, but if the argument, in favour of 4N being either a two suiter or a strong 5♥ is that 'we are no worse off', the argument still leaves me mystified. I think josh concedes that this method is at some disadvantage should the opps raise the preempt over 4N... admittedly I don't see this as a huge disadvantage, but it is non-trivial.

We can imagine hands, for example, in which advancer is extremely short in hearts, and perhaps has a moderate minor 2-suiter.. now, opposite the heart hand, double of 5♠ is probably best, while opposite the 2-suiter, slam may be easy. And we can't say: well, he can double with that... he should be doubling with all kinds of hands that offer no play for slam no matter which variety overcaller holds.

There will be other combinations in which advancer's best action, not knowing which hand overcaller holds, is to double, and it is no answer to argue that overcaller should then always bid 6♥ on the power hands, unless the power hand contains a no-loser opposite extreme shortness suit, which seems unduly restrictive.

So the two way 4N is 'no worse' than the one way version when the opps pass, but (even if only marginally) worse when they bid...hmmmm... why would I use it?

One should adopt a treatment, that carries any cost at all, only when the treatments also affords a benefit that, in one's view, outweighs the cost, after considerations of both frequency and size of cost/benefit. I see the cost: I don't see the benefit... but I may be missing something.

As it is, it strikes me as one of those sexy bids that sound better than they are...

Edit... at my age, my typing (keyboarding?) is so slow that Josh got in there ahead of me.. and did enlighten me with respect to some gain... hmmm.. have to think about this to determine whether, in my view, this gain, which seems small, offsets the disadvantages, which also seem small.

[orlam]

If we have a single-suited hand with hearts, isn't partner very likely to bid 5♣ over 4N?

[JLOL]

orlam, on Apr 7 2009, 12:32 PM, said:

If we have a single-suited hand with hearts, isn't partner very likely to bid 5♣ over 4N?

thank you

[jdonn]

Mike I didn't say we are no worse off if the opponents raise spades over our action. In fact I conceded that we are worse off in that case.

When you consider
- You are virtually not worse off at all if partner responds 5♦.
- You are much better off if partner responds 5♣ (you seem to be ignorring this, the main benefit!)
- Partner is MUCH more likely to respond 5♣ than 5♦ when we are long in hearts (good point orlam.)
- You are better off when you do overcall 5♥ since it is better defined.

and weigh that against
- You are worse off if the next hand bids 5♠.

Then I think it's a no brainer. I used to agree with you on this but was completely talked out of it by an argument much like this one.

[TimG]

Edit: jdonn's edit covered everything I said.

[JLOL]

jdonn, on Apr 7 2009, 01:23 PM, said:

Then I think it's a no brainer. I used to agree with you on this but was completely talked out of it by an argument much like this one.

don't flatter yourself

[Phil]

mtvesuvius, on Apr 3 2009, 09:21 PM, said:

I'll raise... but it won't be the first time I have bid a slam off 2 cashing aces. Or a Grand Slam off a cashing ace...

When you bid a grand off the trump Ace, call me