[awm]

A couple years ago, it used to be that if someone became red-dotted or disconnected, it was up to the other people at the table to call the director. The director would then substitute someone (if possible) for the missing player.

Now it seems like substitution is automated. Even if I disconnect for a second or less (easy to do by logging in on a second machine, which immediately logs me out of the first account) I will be replaced. A lot of directors also have the habit of complaining about how many substitutions they've had to make, when the number would obviously be a lot less if there was a 20-30 second grace period before substituting. And a number of tourneys have very restrictive policies about letting disconnected players rejoin (either you just can't, or it's totally up to the random sub whether to allow it).

Is there a philosophical reason for this approach to substitutions, or is it just an attempt to minimize the director's workload? In any case it seems bad form to me to take such a pro-active approach to substituting (meaning that a lot of players who just have slight network glitches or even just slow computers are kicked from the tourney) and then also complain about the number of substitutions needed.

[jdonn]

awm, on Mar 31 2009, 01:46 AM, said:

Is there a philosophical reason for this approach to substitutions, or is it just an attempt to minimize the director's workload?

Seems to me simply an attempt to keep the table from falling behind and get play restarted more quickly. I don't have much opinion either way on whether I agree with doing that or not, since I understand the frustration of immediately returning to find your seat taken.

Quote

In any case it seems bad form to me to take such a pro-active approach to substituting (meaning that a lot of players who just have slight network glitches or even just slow computers are kicked from the tourney) and then also complain about the number of substitutions needed.

I think you are being really picky. Complaining about the number of substitutions needed just seems like an imprecise way of complaining about the number of disconnections.

[shintaro]

when I direct online I get an automated message say 'missing player'. I then go to table tell them I am aware of the Drop out and that I will give a couple of minutes for them to get back BEFORE I do any substitution

[awm]

I think such a policy is more reasonable in a speedball type tourney, but I see this approach even in tourneys with very long rounds (or even unclocked).

I also think the complaining about substitutes is often a complaint about the players, as it is often accompanied by complaints about how few are keeping up with the round clock and about how "runners will be banned." But it obviously can depend on the context.

It's particularly annoying to me because BBO Flash seems to like to disconnect me right at the start of tourneys (it's a combination of the Flash software and a computer without a lot of memory; it has nothing to do with internet connection actually).

[golfacer]

It may be more of a problem now than years ago because (by default) the director gets an automated message when someone gets disconnected. As a director, I've found it to be annoying, so I deactivated it.

Of course, I appreciate all of the time that volunteers take to provide tournaments. Having said that, here are some of the issues:

1. There are too many players who don't care about finishing the tournament.

2. Many directors/tournaments allow far more pairs than can be served effectively.

3. Some directors do not have an appreciation that a lot of players want to play only with a chosen partner.


Once every year or two, I suggest that a director can restrict tournament players by, let's say, 87% or higher completion percentage, with a minimum of 30 tournaments played. That would encourage more people to direct tournaments (less work) and encourage players to not leave (more tournament choices).

[Old York]

It is my understanding that ACBL tournaments have extra software that allows automated re-seating of disconnected players if they return within a reasonable time frame. This is because the original player has paid for the seat, and therefore has the right to re-seating.
I think that this policy now deters players from volunteering as subs, because they know that they will probably be booted.
I recently subbed into an Acbl game appearing as dummy, did not play a single card or make any bid, and was booted at the end of the hand. Totally pointless.

Subs are important. Any policy which deters subs from volunteering must be a very bad idea

Tony

[awm]

Old York, on Apr 1 2009, 01:57 PM, said:

Subs are important. Any policy which deters subs from volunteering must be a very bad idea

Tony

But aren't players arguably more important?

We could make the subs happy by just randomly booting enough players in order to seat all subs right? This would let all the subs play.

In fact a fairly high percentage of people who disconnect do come back, at least in the ACBL tourneys. This suggests that if we allow the original players to reseat themselves, we might not need so many subs.

I know that I've personally decided not to play in certain tournaments specifically because I know that if (by chance) I'm disconnected even for a second, my partner will be forced to play out the tourney with a random sub. Obviously this is my choice, just as the substitution policy is the director's choice. But I bet there are a lot of directors out there who really do not see this side of the issue, and the implementation of a software method for "instantaneously replacing missing players" has lead to much less tolerance for momentary network or software glitches. Individual directors can do what they want (as always) but I'd like to encourage them to consider waiting at least 20-30 seconds (especially in a tourney with relatively long rounds) before summoning the subs. This will mean they need less substitutes, and keep the most important customers (the people actually signed up to play in the tourney, rather then sub) happier.

In fact this process has occasionally happened so quickly that I have been disconnected, reconnected, returned to my seat, and then booted in favor of a substitute!

[golfacer]

Quote

Individual directors can do what they want (as always) but I'd like to encourage them to consider waiting at least 20-30 seconds (especially in a tourney with relatively long rounds) before summoning the subs.

As a director, if someone calls to tell me "opp is missing", I go to the table, greet the players, and give the partner of the disconnected player time to ask for me to wait before finding a sub. I'd guess about 60% won't say anything, 20% ask for a sub, and 20% ask to wait. My target time from the moment of disconnection to getting a sub is about 2-3 minutes, or longer upon request. It would sometimes take that long for a player to return if there is a brief power outage and the computer needs to be restarted. Since many directors are not even allowing 20 seconds, is there anything that can be done? Maybe BBO can give players an option that, when activated, can disable the sub function for partner's seat for 2-3 minutes?

[blackshoe]

Let me put it this way: as a player, I want to play. If I go to the trouble to find a partner and make a game, and then find myself booted because I got disconnected for twenty seconds, I'll go find another game. If I run into this a sufficient number of times on BBO, I'll either go find another place to play, or give up online bridge.

[jdonn]

blackshoe, on Apr 1 2009, 09:11 PM, said:

Let me put it this way: as a player, I want to play. If I go to the trouble to find a partner and make a game, and then find myself booted because I got disconnected for twenty seconds, I'll go find another game. If I run into this a sufficient number of times on BBO, I'll either go find another place to play, or give up online bridge.

The same argument can be used by the opponents to support the procedure.

"Let me put it this way: as a player, I want to play. If I go to the trouble to find a partner and make a game, and then find myself waiting forever (even to the point of losing boards) because my opponent was disconnected and the director wouldn't quickly replace him, I'll go find another game. If I run into this a sufficient number of times on BBO, I'll either go find another place to play, or give up online bridge."

I really think this is a case for the directors of 'damned if you do, damned if you dont'. So while I still don't have strong feelings in this, I don't blame them for making the disconnected party (offending side?) the one who must suffer.

[jillybean]

blackshoe, on Apr 1 2009, 07:11 PM, said:

  or give up online bridge.

Does this mean you have indeed clicked a card?

[Old York]

As a Director, I have been experiencing a much higher disconnection rate in clocked tournaments than unclocked. No doubt this is because players refuse to wait more than 30 seconds for the start of the next round. Also the disconnection rate is much higher in indy tournaments than in pairs. This is probably because players feel no loyalty towards their partners.

In my last tournament (unclocked indy, 2 boards/round) I had 93 tables and 82 disconnections. This is totally unacceptable. I spent all my time replacing red players and trying to get unresponsive players to respond. I never replace dummy and am reluctant to replace declarer, and will never replace any player until 1-2 minutes after disconnection.

In any normal pairs tournament, I rarely get more than one or two returning players asking to be re-seated. I refuse to reseat any player until I have chatted to the original partner and the sub. It may surprise you to learn that some players do not want their original partner to be reseated.

Tony

p.s. The unclocked format does not work with only 1 board per round, slow players can take as long as they like on every board

[TylerE]

Maybe the problem was that you were trying to run 82 tables in indy with only one director?

[blackshoe]

jillybean2, on Apr 1 2009, 10:36 PM, said:

blackshoe, on Apr 1 2009, 07:11 PM, said:

  or give up online bridge.

Does this mean you have indeed clicked a card?

Not yet, Jilly, not yet. I'm working up to it.

[Old York]

TylerE, on Apr 2 2009, 03:56 PM, said:

Maybe the problem was that you were trying to run 82 tables in indy with only one director?

Do you think that the disconnection rate is inversely proportional to the number of available directors......maybe I should try one director per table? interesting thought LOL

I am coming to the conclusion that all future tournies must be unclocked survivor indies restricted to "English Speaking only" and "no enemies" with no kibs, no chat and no adjustments for slow play, but this would be the exact opposite of the type of tournies that I would prefer to run

Tony

[TylerE]

Yes, I do. Ever thought that some are quitting BECAUSE missing players aren't getting subbed ffast enough?

[Old York]

some are quitting BECAUSE missing players aren't getting subbed ffast enough?

Damned if you do and damned if you don't?

We have come full circle

Or, perhaps you need to be reminded that leaving a tournament is against BBO rules and that all such players may face a BBO ban

[babalu1997]

Old York, on Apr 2 2009, 11:14 AM, said:

Damned if you do and damned if you don't?

We have come full circle

Aye Aye

At this point in time, i am only patronizing ONE, ONE private club that runs free tournaments.

There is no solution to quitters, to stallers, to being booted from games because the opp is friends with the td, to being booted from game because I do not play jacoby transfer.

I gave it up. I play tourneys at another paid site.

The field is too small at the dollar games and the fees pile up, and so i prefer to play an yearly fee and play an unlimited number of games.

I come to nno now to play the bridgemaster or to play at the main bridge cçub with a few acquaintances from many years go. Also vugraph and partnership bidding table.

Sometimes i play at random tables, till they call me a moron for opening 2 spades in 4th seat to show an opening hand, then i log off.


i am happy now.

[shintaro]

babalu1997, on Apr 2 2009, 12:38 PM, said:

There is no solution to quitters, to stallers,


to being booted from games because the opp is friends with the td,


to being booted from game because I do not play jacoby transfer.

Worried about this assertion If it is happening then perhaps the TD should not be a TD

As I wrote previously I give 2 minutes for people disconnected to get back which I do not think is unreasonable