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inc double or forcing pass ? which is better

#1 User is offline   Flame 

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Posted 2004-May-13, 18:43

When we are strong and they overbid us like in
1s (2h) 3h* (4h)
4sp (5h) ? 3h= fit inv+

There are two ways to play this, i most common is the forcing pass, this mean a dbl show the bad or more defensive hand and discarage partner from bidding, while pass inc her to bid.
The alternative way
Double increage
pass discarage and ask partner to double.
I am little sleepy now (about 4 am) but i think few days ago when i did my analyzing i found the alternative way to be a little bit better.
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#2 User is offline   Trpltrbl 

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Posted 2004-May-14, 10:18

Actually, I think it comes down more to the 3 bid and the 4 bid.
If they differ between balanced and unbalanced hands etc. Is 3 based possibly on distribution or is it based on points and fit.
If all that is known then I think you can start talking about when to X and when not. Cause something ain't right about this auction. Either pd or opps are crazy, hopefully I had my 4 bid ;)

Mike ;)
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#3 User is offline   tysen2k 

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Posted 2004-May-14, 11:01

I currently use the alternate way and I find it superior. It's more than just encouraging/discouraging though. If you and your partner have some good and solid agreements about forcing passes, you can handle a lot more situations. It typically goes like this:

In a forcing pass situation:

bidding = one dimensional hand that wants to play
double = mostly take out, suggesting 1-2 trumps. You expect partner to remove the double, but are prepared for him to leave it in.
pass = sort of transfer to double. Partner should double unless he would remove a penalty double. You can have either a penalty hand or a hand with 2 places to play (show this by removing partner's double next round).

Flame's original example probably couldn't have 2 places to play, but it comes up in precision auctions often:

1 - (1)- 2* - (3)
P - (P) - Dbl - (P)
3

* Natural, GF

Opener has spades and another suit (maybe diamonds)
A bit of blatant self-pimping - I've got a new poker book that's getting good reviews.
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#4 User is offline   kfgauss 

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Posted 2004-May-14, 11:21

Quote

When we are strong and they overbid us like in
1s (2h) 3h* (4h)
4sp (5h) ? 3h= fit inv+

There are two ways to play this, i most common is the forcing pass, this mean a dbl show the bad or more defensive hand and discarage partner from bidding, while pass inc her to bid.
The alternative way
Double increage
pass discarage and ask partner to double.
I am little sleepy now (about 4 am) but i think few days ago when i did my analyzing i found the alternative way to be a little bit better.


There seems to me to be little difference between the two, and what little difference there is mostly shows up when you're trying for slam.

Call standard method 1, inverted (ie pass discouraging, dbl encouraging) method 2

You'll have 4 types of hands (excluding the "just bids slam" types):
A. defensive, which doubles in 1, passes in 2
B. medium, which passes in 1, doubles in 2
C. offensive, which bids 5S
D. slam try, which passes, then bids 5S over pard's double

The main difference shows up when you're making a slam try and pard goes and bids 5S over your pass. In method 1, this shows simply a hand that accepts the invitation to bid on. In method 2, however, this shows a hand that bids on despite pard being defensive.

In either case, you're going to go bid slam when you've got a slam try and pard bids 5S in front of you, but very rarely this will be wrong in method 1 when pard wouldn't accept a slam invitation but prefers to bid 5S given the choice.. maybe a minimum hand with little defense. It seems to me much more rare for a hand that would choose to bid on even though pard's defensive to be one that would reject a slam try, making method 2 slightly superior in this respect.

Another minor case where method 2 is slightly superior (this time not for any bridge reason) is if pard tanks and then a committee can't tell the difference between hand types B and D playing method 1, or A and D playing method 2 when you've got a slam try (ie D). I guess the latter is slightly less likely, but both are pretty far fetched. (As a side note, I have had a case where pard made a game try, I tanked and rejected, and he went on, and his hand looked invitational to me. He'd been making a slam try, looking for perfect cards opposite. Just a friendly online game, though.)

Of course, if you often forget when you're playing a forcing pass, method 1 will come out on top.

Andy
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