[amj222]

Hi,
Just wondering if anyone can help.
I recently doubled a heart opening call by my RH opponent, LH opponent passed and partner wanted to pass to leave for penalties with 6 hearts sitting in their hand but was told they had to bid.
Is this the rules or just generally not done.

Any help greatly appreciated

Andre

[Stephen Tu]

Who told him he had to bid?

Of course your partner is allowed to pass. You should lead a trump.

[helene_t]

Hi Andre, welcome to the forum! I hope you will enjoy our company!

With 6 trumps it is generally good to pass a 1-level double,
with 5 trumps it is generally good to pass a 2-level double,
with 4 trumps it is generally good to pass a 3-level double,
with 3 trumps it is generally good to pass a 4-level double.

These rules are corollaries of the wholly LAW of Total Tricks

[amj222]

The opposition said they had to bid.
Thanks for the advice.
Will know for next time.

[barmar]

Mel Colchamiro has a "Rule of 9" for deciding when to convert a takeout double. Add the number of cards you have in the opponent's suit, the number of honor cards (including the 10) you have in their suit, and the level of the contract. If it's 9 or more it's reasonable to pass, if it's 8 or less you should bid another suit.

Using this guideline, having 6 hearts isn't enough, you should also have a couple of honors in the suit (at least 2 to penalize at the 1 level). If you have 987654, opener is likely to be able to take 4-5 tricks in the suit, as well as a couple of side suit tricks, making his contract. But if your honors are AQ9876 you should be able to draw several of opener's trumps, preventing him from taking tricks there.

[JLOL]

I hate the rule of 9 and the LOTT rules, but I can't offer rules myself so what do I know. When to pass a takeout double just depends on so many factors you basically have to use good judgment to do well.

[Elianna]

There is a difference between "having to bid" based on the rules of bridge, and having to bid based on your set of agreements.

In this situation, your partner never HAS to bid. He could pass no matter what he holds, it's just not always ADVISABLE. Other posts have detailed when they think it's advisable.

I highly advise that when anyone tells you or your partner that they have to do something, call whoever's running your game (teacher/directer/etc.). If you're playing at home, it's always advisable to have an agreed upon person to call ahead of time, so you don't have hurt feelings by disagreements on laws.

[hanp]

Also hate the rules offered and I also can't give an easy rule. Whether to pass for penalties depends on the length and honors in their suits, the spotcards in their suit, thet vulnerability, the strength of the hand, the length in your other suits...

Saying that you should generally pass a 4-level double with 3 trumps is the most off of the rules that Helene gave.

[barmar]

Yeah, in general all the "Rule of X" rules are really guidelines, rules of thumb, helpful hints. Even the Law of Total Tricks is routinely broken by its advocates.

Mel broke his own rule in problem #2 in the Feb 2009 "It's Your Call". IMPs, favorable vulnerability, the auction goes: (1♦)-X-(3♠(weak))-P; 4♦-X-P, and you hold ♠K1043 ♥864 ♦42 ♣ 10983. The panelists were about evenly split between Pass and 5♣ (with one lone vote for 4♥ from Meckstroth), with the Colchamiros on the side of Pass (their comment: "Nowhere to run to, nowhere to hide").

But until you've got years of experience under your belt, guidelines like these are often better than your gut instincts.

[Lobowolf]

barmar, on Mar 31 2009, 04:02 PM, said:

But until you've got years of experience under your belt, guidelines like these are often better than your gut instincts.

That's probably true, but relying on the guidelines probably slows down the development of those instincts. I come down on the side of trying out your judgment, even if it's a short-term loser. See what works and what doesn't, and try to figure out why.

[Trinidad]

Lobowolf, on Mar 31 2009, 04:08 PM, said:

barmar, on Mar 31 2009, 04:02 PM, said:

But until you've got years of experience under your belt, guidelines like these are often better than your gut instincts.

That's probably true, but relying on the guidelines probably slows down the development of those instincts. I come down on the side of trying out your judgment, even if it's a short-term loser. See what works and what doesn't, and try to figure out why.

That is not my experience.

If you have a guideline, you can use it for a while. After some time your experience will tell you in what way the guideline needs to be adjusted and now your judgement comes into play. In that case, you are starting out on a pattern and adjust for deviations.

If you don't have any guideline at all, you are simply guessing what to do. It will be hard to recognize a pattern at all and you will not learn how to judge at all.

One of the simplest guidelines in bridge is the counting of HCPs. We all know that bridge is a game of tricks and not a game of HCPs. Nevertheless, we all count points. After a while, we realize that (e.g.) honors that support each other lead to more tricks than scattered high cards. We also realize that quacks in partner's suit are more useful than quacks opposite partner's singleton. And we realize that aces are generally undervalued in the 1-2-3-4 point count. With experience, we can adjust the guidelines of counting HCPs.

For an absolute beginner, it is very difficult to decide whether he should bid (and what) if he wouldn't have the HCP guideline. The same holds for more experienced players on other guidelines, whether it is the LTC, LOTT, rule of 9, ZAR point count, the rule of 11, the rule of 15, or whatever. These guidelines are setting a mark. And your judgement can tell you how your actual situation will be different from the mark.

Rik

[Lobowolf]

Trinidad, on Mar 31 2009, 04:50 PM, said:

For an absolute beginner, it is very difficult to decide whether he should bid (and what) if he wouldn't have the HCP guideline. The same holds for more experienced players on other guidelines, whether it is the LTC, LOTT, rule of 9, ZAR point count, the rule of 11, the rule of 15, or whatever. These guidelines are setting a mark. And your judgement can tell you how your actual situation will be different from the mark.

Rik

For an absolute beginner, I agree. And even for something less than "absolute." But in my opinion, as I see it, players who should be progressing to "advanced beginner" or "intermediate" are still clinging too tightly to rules at the expense of developing judgment, e.g. C players at the local club who are coming up on life master and still base all opening decisions on Rule of 20 - no accounting at all for tens and nines being better than threes and twos, aces and kings being worth more than their "equivalent" in queens and jacks, honors in long suits, etc.

[Trinidad]

Lobowolf, on Mar 31 2009, 04:56 PM, said:

Trinidad, on Mar 31 2009, 04:50 PM, said:

For an absolute beginner, it is very difficult to decide whether he should bid (and what) if he wouldn't have the HCP guideline. The same holds for more experienced players on other guidelines, whether it is the LTC, LOTT, rule of 9, ZAR point count, the rule of 11, the rule of 15, or whatever. These guidelines are setting a mark. And your judgement can tell you how your actual situation will be different from the mark.

Rik

For an absolute beginner, I agree. And even for something less than "absolute." But in my opinion, as I see it, players who should be progressing to "advanced beginner" or "intermediate" are still clinging too tightly to rules at the expense of developing judgment, e.g. C players at the local club who are coming up on life master and still base all opening decisions on Rule of 20 - no accounting at all for tens and nines being better than threes and twos, aces and kings being worth more than their "equivalent" in queens and jacks, honors in long suits, etc.

But do you think that these players would have learned anything at all if they weren't taught to count HCPs?

I think these players would have played very poorly all along and wouldn't have gotten anywhere. They certainly wouldn't get in the neighborhood of LM. they probably would have quit bridge before their first masterpoint.

Some players have a talent for the game and they will realize that bridge is still about tricks and not about points. Others will never get to that point and they will remain walrusses. But a walrus still beats a complete nitwit.

Rik

[P_Marlowe]

amj222, on Mar 30 2009, 03:56 PM, said:

Hi,
Just wondering if anyone can help.
I recently doubled a heart opening call by my RH opponent, LH opponent passed and partner wanted to pass to leave for penalties with 6 hearts sitting in their hand but was told they had to bid.
Is this the rules or just generally not done.

Any help greatly appreciated

Andre

The bid you can always make, if it is your turn to speak is "PASS".

If you should make this bid, is of course depend on your hand /
the specific auction, but that was not you question.

If you think "PASS" will give you the best result you can expect, than
the Law does not force you to choose a different one.
It is different with other bids, you may want to bid 1H, but the auction
reached already the 4 Level, when you get the first chance to speak,
now Law prohibits bidding 1H.

With kind regards
Marlowe