[precpj]

West with a hand AK6432 AKJ73 7 Q

Bidding went Non contested

East West
1C 1H
1NT 2S
2NT 3H
3H 3S
4NT 5C
5S PAssed

Qestions:

1. with SAYC agreed: Does anybody picture spade suit is longer than heart ?

2. with SAYC agreed: if West as dealer do you open 1S or 1H ?

3. anything different when playing 2/1 ?

My thoughts have been always : 1.West was bidding out a 6H 5S hand or a strong 64 in reverse 2 and 3 Open with 1S regardless with 2/1 or SAYC

The EUROPEAN SAYC BBOer holding West hand DISAGREES citing this paragraph from
http://en.wikipedia....everse_(bridge) " In Standard American a reverse is defined by William S. Root[1] as "... a nonjump bid at the two-level in a new suit that ranks higher than the suit you bid first",

Also inACBL website http://web2.acbl.org/documentlibrary/play/...gle%20pages.pdf
"Rebids with a medium hand (16-18 points)
Jump raise of responder’s suit or jump rebid of opener’s suit;
Reverse in a new suit, i.e., bid a new suit at the two level which is higher ranking than the opening suit;"

If these two paragraphs are correct, then i have been ignorant assuming it is corret to ALWAYS open a longer suit

Precpj

[helene_t]

Always (well, at least in this case) bid the longest suit first.

Ideally, you show 6-5 in four turns by bidding
- spades (4+)
- hearts (5+/4+)
- hearts (5+/5+)
- spades(6+/5+)

but in practice you won't get four turns and you would have to describe it as 5/5, or as 6/4 if the spades are much better than the hearts.

This applies when you open as well as when you respond.

The bidding might go
1♣-1♠
1NT-3♥
3NT-4♥ (or 5♥ if more optimistic))

Now opener knows that responder is 5+/5+ but since spades might be longer, he will take preference for spades if he has two appr. equal doubletons.

[mtvesuvius]

1. Never will I picture anything close to this hand. In order to remotely achieve this, you must first bid 1♠. This auction seems to be showing a 7♥-5♠ type hand.

2. This is a straight forward 1♠ opener... Try to envision the auction if you open 1♥... Showing anything remotely close to this is hopeless. 1♠, then jump-shift then rebid ♠ is the way to show this.

3. Nope.

Conclusion: Envision the auction, and almost always bid your longer suit first. With 4-4 in the majors, bid the lower, with 5-4, bid the 5 card major, with 5-5, bid the higher, with 6-5, bid the 6 card major etc...

[eeshtel]

What ,then, is your position on a "reverse" bidding. Not so much how you should play the hand but whether it should be recognized.
P.S
In description, accepted by ACBL as part of SAYC, there is no mention of suit length, etc.etc.
I have been using reverse precisely for that type of hand, never found any problems of partners not understanding it. (key to using reverse is 16-18 point hand)
It may be coming from ACOL originally and I was surprised myself to find it in official ACBL booklet. But there it is.
"european" sayc player, West in diagram

[precpj]

finally the real West (eeshtel) at the table is drawn into the discussion here; i have teased him according to the internet Elvis is still ALIVE. Over the years, I kibitz so many Vugraph presentation and never noticed any bidding close to what HE insisted. let alone the fact i have been in love with this game since 1969

Bridge is a good game to train US in inferencing communicatiing ; I was amazed with his insistence to stick with what he found out on net and his deligence in trying to convert me into his thinking

btw, do we open 1H or 1S with KQJXX AJXXXX X X ? I open 1S

with KQJXX AKXXXX X XX I would open 1H and would never question the hidden wisdom with 1S open since the 1S openers going with traditional POINT count required for the reverse

PJ

[helene_t]

A reverse also shows that the first bid suit is longer than the second.

If you have a strong in which the longer suit is higher-ranking so that you can't reverse, you may have to jump at your second turn.

1♣-1♠
1NT-2♥*
is nonforcing so a strong hand must bid 3♥.

1♣-1♠
2♣-2♥*
is forcing.

1♠-1NT
2♥*
is non-forcing but does not deny extras. You can still have 17 points. With 19 you would have to bid 3♥.

1♠-2♣
2♥*
is forcing.

[ASkolnick]

I think I will try and categorize the concepts of what is being displayed:

You must be strong enough in order to reverse.
If you are not strong enough, you should not reverse.
Not reversing, does not deny strength.

I know this is what most people are saying, but you may want to talk to partner in the following manner.

A reverse shows strength.
Not reversing, does not deny strength, just shows shape.

See the examples below.

Hand 1:

KQJxx, AQxxxx,x,x

Some people will open this 1S because the rebid becomes uncomfortable. There are people who will ignore the spade suit, but I personally think that is wrong.

Hand 2:
KQJxxx,AQxxx,x,x

Bid spades, hearts, hearts.

Hand 3:
AKQxxx,KQJxx,x,x

Bid spades, hearts, hearts. But bid more of them. Don't distort distribution to indicate high card strength.

[P_Marlowe]

#1 West should bid spades before hearts, I cant usually count higher
than 10, but I only need to count to 6 and 5, and I have 6 spades
and 5 hearts
3S does not make the spades longer, it is just a control showing bid,
assuming opener did bid 3H (?!) at my next turn, removing 3NT to 4H,
which tells partner that I have 6-5.
#2 1S, planning to bid 3H
#3 No
You could play, that a 3NT opening showes 6-5 in the majors,
a treatment suggested by Fred.

#4 If you have 6hearts and 5 spades you may consider opening 1S,
in case you dont think your hand worth a reverse.

With kind regards
Marlowe

[eeshtel]

I think Elvis was great ,precpj, and so is reverse of majors as to which AScolnik can attest to.
(6-5 distribution or similar becomes secondary consideration, probably subjective to particular style of play)
Many thanks.

[matmat]

is there a good primer on this somewhere? this is a mistake i see *all* the time watching online.

[Cascade]

precpj, on Mar 27 2009, 02:00 AM, said:

West with a hand AK6432 AKJ73 7 Q

Bidding went Non contested

East West
1C 1H
1NT 2S
2NT 3H
3H 3S
4NT 5C
5S PAssed

Qestions:

1. with SAYC agreed: Does anybody picture spade suit is longer than heart ?

2. with SAYC agreed: if West as dealer do you open 1S or 1H ?

3. anything different when playing 2/1 ?

My thoughts have been always : 1.West was bidding out a 6H 5S hand or a strong 64 in reverse 2 and 3 Open with 1S regardless with 2/1 or SAYC

The EUROPEAN SAYC BBOer holding West hand DISAGREES citing this paragraph from
http://en.wikipedia....everse_(bridge) " In Standard American a reverse is defined by William S. Root[1] as "... a nonjump bid at the two-level in a new suit that ranks higher than the suit you bid first",

Also inACBL website http://web2.acbl.org/documentlibrary/play/...gle%20pages.pdf
"Rebids with a medium hand (16-18 points)
Jump raise of responder’s suit or jump rebid of opener’s suit;
Reverse in a new suit, i.e., bid a new suit at the two level which is higher ranking than the opening suit;"

If these two paragraphs are correct, then i have been ignorant assuming it is corret to ALWAYS open a longer suit

Precpj

Nothing in those quotes denies that the first suit is always longer than the second when a reverse is used properly.

The only possible exception that I would admit are some awkward 4-4-4-1 hands but many dislike reversing on those.

1st rule of bidding - whereever possible bid your longest suit first.

A reverse is a rebid in a new suit, higher ranking than the suit opened, at the two-level and it shows at least five cards in the first suit and at least four cards in the second suit with the first suit ALWAYS being longer than the second suit.

[Stephen Tu]

Quote

In description, accepted by ACBL as part of SAYC, there is no mention of suit length, etc.etc

Eeshtel, documents such as the SAYC summary aren't supposed to be considered a complete description of the system suitable for novices to the system. It is a summary of a set of possible agreements for a casual partnership, or an individual tournament, for people already familiar with Standard American bidding systems in general. In these systems, it is assumed that you bid longer suits first when holding 5+ suits, you never swap the order you show suits solely to convey strength, and that with equal length 5+ suits you bid the higher ranking first. A reverse denotes both strength & shape, it is assumed that the first suit is longer.

It is possible to create a system where one uses reverses to denote strength and a equal or longer second suit, this is called canape by responder, and is utilized in "Blue Team Club". But it is not used in Standard American variants.

In standard, as responder, if you are strong w/ 5+ long suits, and your longest suit (or tied for longest) happens to be higher ranking than your 2nd suit, you rely on new suits being forcing in most situations to keep the bidding open, and you always bid the longest suit first. Over a 1nt rebid, the sole exception to new suits being forcing, to force you have to either jump in your 2nd suit (the only way to force in vanilla SAYC w/o extra conventions), or agree on some artificial forcing continuation after 1nt, utilizing either the 2c or 2d rebids, or both, conventions known as new minor forcing (nmf), xyz, checkback stayman, 2-way check back stayman, etc.

As opener, you also don't distort suit length to show strength. If your longest suit is higher ranking, with a really strong hand (19+ pts) you can jump shift at your next turn if partner only bid at the 1 level to force. If you only have a medium strength hand, (16-18 or so), you have no way to convey the full amount of strength on the second round. If you bid say 1s-1nt-2d, partner has no way of knowing whether you have 12 points or 18 points. If he has 8+ points, he will try to keep the bidding alive to give you a chance to bid again with 17-18 or so. But sometimes game will be missed. This is somewhat of a weakness in std methods, and one reason why other systems are sometimes developed, but you can't go around bidding suits out of order when your agreement is "standard" because partners will make incorrect assumptions about suit length.

[peachy]

Echoing everyone else: Responder (who is not constrained to stay on the one-level because not strong enough to bid on two level) bids suits in their natural order: longest first, higher first from 5-5, lower first from 4-4. Regardless of whether system is SAYC, 2/1, or any other.

[Cascade]

peachy, on Mar 27 2009, 07:22 PM, said:

lower first from 4-4

"up-the-line" is the usual description of how to bid two four-card suits. Excepting Walshh etc.

[eeshtel]

Still on reverse;
Thank you Stephen Hu for mentioning the origins of this treatment.
I accept bidding longer suit first as basic concept in sayc and other standard systems.
I am still uncertain how to interpret using reverse of 5-5 length major suits with 17-19 point hand.
Your post suggests bidding spades before hearts and then warns of some shortcomings in bidding certain hands, inherent in the system.

In casual game, using standard methods, when bidding:
1C-1H
1N-2S
who, with rudimentary sayc knowledge, will pass?

Is it not the reverse that is supposed to fill the hole created by:
1C-1S
1N-3H

by switching inquiry to a stronger hand?

Thank you in advance

[Stephen Tu]

Quote

In casual game, using standard methods, when bidding:
1C-1H
1N-2S
who, with rudimentary sayc knowledge, will pass?

They probably won't pass, but the problem is at this point in the auction, they will assume only 4 spades and 5 hearts. Then when you rebid spades again to show the fifth spade, they will assume 6 hearts. Since with 5=5 majors you are supposed to always bid spades, the higher ranking suit, first.

Quote

Is it not the reverse that is supposed to fill the hole created by:
1C-1S
1N-3H

by switching inquiry to a stronger hand?

Please explain what "hole" you believe is created here. What strength range do you feel is not covered?

The "hole" in SAYC is with invitational hands. 3H above is forcing, 2H is non-forcing. Players fill this hole by using either or both 2c/2d artificially. Not by reversing the order of suit bids, which is reserved for showing length disparity.

[precpj]

Bingo !! Stephen did a job better than me.

the 2C and 2D is checkback stayman or New minor forcing convention to fill 'holes'
some even play 2 way check back 2D as game forcing

Precpj

[eeshtel]

Response to Stephen Hu

The "hole" I had in mind is as follows:

1C-1S
1N-3H

Notwithstanding length, etc. I bid 13 and 19 point hand the same way.

Using artificial 2c/2d I am better off for the bid level not shape.

Evidently, reverse of majors describes one type of hand - length difference - and differentiate strength only between ~ 10-12 point hand with 2H response and ~ 13-19 point hand with 3H response.

[Stephen Tu]

Quote

Response to Stephen Hu

My surname starts with a 'T' not an 'H' if you'll look more carefully. Prefer you either just use my first name or use the correct letter.

Quote

The "hole" I had in mind is as follows:

1C-1S
1N-3H

Notwithstanding length, etc. I bid 13 and 19 point hand the same way.

True, but why does it matter at this point? With the min hand you'll just sign off in game after partner takes a preference. With the slam invitational hand you can cue-bid 4m instead. Partner with a great hand for the majors here should cue-bid 4c/4d instead of bidding 4 hearts if he has heart support.

Although your hand is wide ranging, partner's isn't, so you have control of the auction, and can differentiate your strength range on the next round of bidding if necessary.

Also, your "solution" of bidding hearts first rather than spades doesn't solve anything, because you're inventing your own non-std method. People will assume hearts are longer than spades, instead of interpreting your bid as showing a particular strength range. How is partner without prior discussion going to know which range is which, between the jump-shift sequence & the reverse sequence? Also, on hands where it matters, how are you gong to show longer hearts with a 5-6 hand?

Even if you think there is a hole, it doesn't do you any good to spring your pet method to fill the hole on people without discussion, because it just isn't the standard way of doing things.

Quote

Evidently, reverse of majors describes one type of hand - length difference - and differentiate strength only between ~ 10-12 point hand with 2H response and ~ 13-19 point hand with 3H response.

2H over 1nt actually shows ~6-10- points and is expected to be passed or a preference taken to 2S. With the invitational 11pt hands you have to either use a 2c/2d gadget, or choose to underbid/overbid if a gadget is not available.

[zen]

East West
1C 1H
1NT 2S
2NT 3H
3H 3S
4NT 5C
5S Passed

This wasn’t bid on a computer since East responded with an insufficient bid on his fourth bid or the auction is incorrect.

While figuring out how to show shape with the west hand is interesting, your hand is highly distributional and strong opposite a partner whose hand has been described fairly well. Partner has shown 12-14 HCP w/ 2-3 Spades and 2 Hearts. The west bidder should take control with this hand as they can easily figure out (visualize) what is the best contract via keycard after figuring out if/what is the best major suit fit.

If you have agreements as to what partner will open with 4-4 in the minors you will know what shape partner has.

West should never Pass the 5S bid. Blackwood and Keycard are conventions to AVOID bad slams, and to stop on the five level should the partnership lack the controls for slam. In this auction east is hardly asking partner blackwood with an aceless hand. In fact east should have a control rich hand. Hence, east is bidding 5S to protect against the (unlikely) situation that West has zero keycards. West must continue on. The hands may even make 7. (I would expect east to have the queen of spades to jump to 4NT over 3S more often then not.)