[OleBerg]

Maybe this belongs in the B/I-forum, but I want the experts answers:

When you have bypassed 4NT by cuebidding, how do you check aces? 5NT? Is the answering-scheme the same?

Is anything considered "Standard"?

[hanp]

Some use 5NT but we don't check for aces after we bypassed 4NT.

[peachy]

I may not be as "expert" as you wanted, but in 32 years I have never heard of a method where there is an ace ask once 4NT has been bypassed. So my answer would be, it is standard not to have ace ask in your described situation.

[Cascade]

In my opinion it is a serious flaw to not have an ace ask after you have bypassed 4NT.

Perhaps you can survive (sometimes) if you cue-bid 1st round controls before 2nds and play Josephine (5NT asking for trump honours).

We play 1st/2nd cue-bids equally and kickback so that RKCB is in the step immediately above the trump suit. After we have bypassed the kickback "suit" at the four-level then we can always ask for key-cards in the kickback "suit" at the five-level.

[jdonn]

You don't check for aces once you cuebid past 4NT. Of course the odd accident can happen that probably shouldn't (just like when you use blackwood as well) but with good judgment you can do fine.

[mikeh]

jdonn, on Mar 20 2009, 02:44 PM, said:

You don't check for aces once you cuebid past 4NT. Of course the odd accident can happen that probably shouldn't (just like when you use blackwood as well) but with good judgment you can do fine.

Agreed.

I probably use keycard less than just about all regular forum posters, with the possible exception of Frances, and have never regretted not having a method of asking in auctions in which keycard is no longer available (and for me this includes minor slam auctions with cues of 4M... 4N is no longer keycard).

[gnasher]

It's standard not to be able to ask for aces once you've cue bid past 4NT. Personally I do like to use 5NT as RKCB in this situation, but it's a rare agreement.

[mikeh]

gnasher, on Mar 20 2009, 03:58 PM, said:

It's standard not to be able to ask for aces once you've cue bid past 4NT. Personally I do like to use 5NT as RKCB in this situation, but it's a rare agreement.

As in every aspect of bridge, this seems to involve a tradeoff. I thiink expert standard is to use most 5N calls, in slam investigatory sequences, as pick-a-slam. My sense, and I don't claim a lot of experience in this, is that the pick-a-slam is probably a better choice, in terms of gain/frequency issues, but personal experience not only may but surely will vary.

[Cascade]

mikeh, on Mar 21 2009, 10:26 AM, said:

gnasher, on Mar 20 2009, 03:58 PM, said:

It's standard not to be able to ask for aces once you've cue bid past 4NT.  Personally I do like to use 5NT as RKCB in this situation, but it's a rare agreement.

As in every aspect of bridge, this seems to involve a tradeoff. I thiink expert standard is to use most 5N calls, in slam investigatory sequences, as pick-a-slam. My sense, and I don't claim a lot of experience in this, is that the pick-a-slam is probably a better choice, in terms of gain/frequency issues, but personal experience not only may but surely will vary.

I don't think these are mutually exclusive aims.

We use both.

RKCB when we have settled on a strain.

Pick-a-slam when we have not settled on a strain.

[mikeh]

I don't understand how you can have a cue-bidding sequence in an auction in which you have not 'established' a strain. Pick a slam auctions merely afford flexibility in case there are features about partner's hand that partner has not yet clarified that may suggest an alternate strain. But it is customary to 'establish' a strain, if only to ensure that partner understands that subsequent bids are not choice of games or still probes for appropriate denominations.

Cue-bidding without suit agreement is very problematic.

[jdonn]

I can think of a number of meanings I would rather use 5NT for than an ace ask. But to each his own. In any case it's certainly not standard, which everyone seems to agree.

[kenrexford]

The main reason no one has an ace-ask after bypassing 4NT in favor of cuebidding, IMO, is that you only bypass 4NT in a slam sequence to cuebid when you do not need RKCB.

You might have the Aces known, in which case asking is a waste of time.

Or, you might need one snip of info to make a decision whether to bid or not bid the small slam, where 5NT as the Ace-asking bid, for example, would be useless, no answer allowing a stop below slam.

The one possible "exception" that is mainstream-ish would be lackwood, but that's sort of a rare case, and I'm not sure if lackwood applies after a cue or two anyway.

[dake50]

Do you have a cue above 4NT rule as 'Promises 2xA+void' or 'If either of your cues were A, continue; if both K/2nd signoff'

[Phil]

I have heard of one person that played 5N as ace asking, but it was in the case where the opponents had preempted and they had a known fit in an auction like:

1♠ - (3♣) - 4♣ - (5♣)
5N

I've never heard of anyone using 5N (or anything else) as asking in a cue bidding auction when we've voluntarily passed 4N.

[benlessard]

if your are forced over 4nt for slam purpose you are in voidland anyway. So asking for ace instead or general strenght is inferior.

5Nt pick-a-slam is a seriously underrated and must have tool IMO

[kgr]

2NT-3♦
3♥-4♦!
5♦!!-5♥!!!
 
4♦=5c♥-4+c♦ and slem interest
5♦=♦-support, minimum
5♥=RKC (in this sequence we play 1/1 as RKC if above 4NT).

[OleBerg]

Thank you all for your replies.