[Hanoi5]

You deal with no one Vulnerable in a swiss team match:

♠AKTx
♥AQTxx
♦AKT
♣A


You open 2♣, and it goes 3♣ on your left, Pass from partner and 4♣ from your RHO, your turn again.

How do you plan to continue? What does partner's pass mean in your system? What if it meant a bad hand?

[Impact]

Pass= t/o GF and

a) will convert 4D to 4H assuming CHO's pass was virtually a 2nd negative...

If he doubles for "penalties" after my t/o pass I am tempted to leave it in at this vul as it is certain that CHO does not hold 4+M

c) will raise 4H to 6H

d) will raise 4S to 5

e) if he manages to bid at the 5 level by himself I shall investigate grand

Now none of these are necessarily right, as on one view I have "only the 3 Loser hand I promised" but I think this is playing the odds.

A lot depends on the meaning of that initial pass by CHO....

regards

[hanp]

Whatever pass means, we have an obvious takeout double.

I believe cherdanno and I play it doesn't show or deny values. Double of 3C would be takeout. At the 2-level double would show a bust and pass would show values.

[the hog]

Agree with Fred. I pass here as this is forcing, of course. X would show a strong balanced hand which I don't have.

[whereagles]

I play dbl as take out, so I have an easy time here.

[the hog]

whereagles, on Mar 12 2009, 05:20 PM, said:

I play dbl as take out, so I have an easy time here.

So what is pass Nuno? Surely you can't pass a hand out after a 2c opening and let the opps play undoubled?

[FrancesHinden]

I play double as balanced, so I would pass on this hand and for me that is obvious.
If partner doubles 4C I have a harder problem, whether to stand it or not.

[OleBerg]

The_Hog, on Mar 12 2009, 12:29 PM, said:

whereagles, on Mar 12 2009, 05:20 PM, said:

I play dbl as take out, so I have an easy time here.

So what is pass Nuno? Surely you can't pass a hand out after a 2c opening and let the opps play undoubled?

There is actually quite some merit to reverse the meaning of the bids here, i.e. Pass = "Penalty" (Balanced), and double = Take-out, but I would consider that a special agreement.

The advantage is, that it will often enable the strong hand to make a "pass and pull". And the strong hand can use more ways more than the weak hand.

And if the strong hand doesn't get to make the "pass and pull", it is because the weak hand has overrulede the "Penalty", and has thus described itself very well.

[whereagles]

The_Hog, on Mar 12 2009, 10:29 AM, said:

whereagles, on Mar 12 2009, 05:20 PM, said:

I play dbl as take out, so I have an easy time here.

So what is pass Nuno? Surely you can't pass a hand out after a 2c opening and let the opps play undoubled?

As Ole said, I do play

Dbl = take-out
Pass = forcing, asking pard to dbl with shortness

However, I don't do this for purely technical reasons. Rather, I do it because it agrees with the meta-rule: "dbl = take out until a fit is found".

[the hog]

whereagles, on Mar 12 2009, 07:15 PM, said:

The_Hog, on Mar 12 2009, 10:29 AM, said:

whereagles, on Mar 12 2009, 05:20 PM, said:

I play dbl as take out, so I have an easy time here.

So what is pass Nuno? Surely you can't pass a hand out after a 2c opening and let the opps play undoubled?

As Ole said, I do play

Dbl = take-out
Pass = forcing, asking pard to dbl with shortness

However, I don't do this for purely technical reasons. Rather, I do it because it agrees with the meta-rule: "dbl = take out until a fit is found".

Nuno, you have a problem here; if you pass on a big balanced hand and pd doesn't have shortness?????

[OleBerg]

The_Hog, on Mar 12 2009, 02:36 PM, said:

whereagles, on Mar 12 2009, 07:15 PM, said:

The_Hog, on Mar 12 2009, 10:29 AM, said:

whereagles, on Mar 12 2009, 05:20 PM, said:

I play dbl as take out, so I have an easy time here.

So what is pass Nuno? Surely you can't pass a hand out after a 2c opening and let the opps play undoubled?

As Ole said, I do play

Dbl = take-out
Pass = forcing, asking pard to dbl with shortness

(If asked for a name, I would call the agreement "Reversed forcing pass".)

However, I don't do this for purely technical reasons. Rather, I do it because it agrees with the meta-rule: "dbl = take out until a fit is found".

Nuno, you have a problem here; if you pass on a big balanced hand and pd doesn't have shortness?????

Just to specify what agreement I was describing:

Dbl = Take-out.
Pass =Asks partner to double, if he would have left a penalty double in.

(If was asked for the name of the agreement, I would call it "Reversed forcing pass".)

So you double (in fourth position), with any hand that wouldn't have pulled a "penalty"-double from partner. This includes the unlikely hands with lenght.

As for what is standard, I'd expect that when "we have forced to game", like here, "double is penalty". (So I also play that a double of 3♣ would have been penalty/warning. I wouldn't be so sure what to expect here from an unknown partner though.)

[P_Marlowe]

Hi,

unless discussed differently:

Since Pass is forcing, X is for penalty, what ever hand type
qualify for this, e.g a strong bal. hand with wastage in clubs
would also make a pen. X.

Pass would show a hand, which has no clear direction, bidding
a new suit, whould show a single suiter.

Your best bet maybe to Pass, and Pass partners double, if he
bids a suit, you may or may not invite him to play 6.

Of course partner has made also a forcing Pass over 3C, so
he wont have a clear pen. X, but if you intend to pull the X,
than you should bid 4H direct.

With kind regards
Marlowe

[whereagles]

The_Hog, on Mar 12 2009, 12:36 PM, said:

Nuno, you have a problem here; if you pass on a big balanced hand and pd doesn't have shortness?????

I do something similar to what Ole suggested. But I wouldn't be too worried about that situation. It's not like they're gonna bluff me often by bidding to the 4 level on a combined 7 card fit