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DONT and Cappellite

#1 User is offline   janicesze 

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Posted 2004-May-10, 23:08

I was in a discusion of playing DONT or Cappellite versus NTs.
While some said it's better to play DONT over strong NT and Cappellite over weak NT, I think it's essential to know about the pros and cons of both system first

Some suggested that the double used in DONT seems more likely to be penalizing the NTs opening.
As the double suggested that one holds a suit with some HCP, partner could seek for penalty with it, hoping that the contract would be beaten by partner's suit and the HCPs you owned

How do you feel about it?
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#2 User is offline   the hog 

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Posted 2004-May-10, 23:36

Well to tell you the truth, I would not play either as I don't think either of them is much good against a weak or a strong NT. If you want something really easy, try 2C minors, 2D Majors, and against a strong NT X = major/minor 2 suiter.
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#3 User is offline   Rado 

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Posted 2004-May-11, 01:22

Hi all,

Opposite to Ron I play exactly DONT vs strong and Capp vs weak NT with my regular live partner. Both are simple methods which do not need mych memory. And with some "science" partners I play many many other conventions over NT with doubtful results:-)))))))
Rado
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#4 User is offline   joker_gib 

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Posted 2004-May-11, 02:24

Hi all !

Here is what I play :

On strong NT :

Dbl = Transfer to 2 with or both majors (if so I rebid 2)
2 = Transfer to
2 = transfer to with 6 or 6
2 = + minor
2 = + minor
2NT = minors

On weak NT :

Dbl = opps NT range + 2 HCP (sometimes +1)
2 = Landy (majors)
All other bids natural

This is not difficult and it works quite well !

Alain :)
Alain
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#5 User is offline   Gerben47 

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Posted 2004-May-11, 02:54

DONT:

Ideal convention to miss fits.
You have say 5 2 3 3, 1NT on your left, partner 2 showing + major. If he actually holds spades you are now playing a minor 4-3 fit instead of a major 5-4 fit. What fun... It is usually okay when you have an 8-card fit but it tends to miss 9+card fits!

Cappelletti:
2 showing the majors is much better than 2 because partner will often have 5-4 and now you can find your best fit.

Although I generally dislike GCC-allowed methods I can suggest this:

LANDY

Vs weak NT: not Cappelletti but 2 = majors, rest natural, double shows 15+ regardless of what NT range they have.

(If you don't need to conform to GCC: MULTI LANDY
As above but 2 = major 1-suiter, 2 of a major = that major + a minor)

Vs strong NT:

LIONEL

Double = + 2nd suit
2 of a minor = + that minor
2 of a major = natural
2NT = minors
Two wrongs don't make a right, but three lefts do!
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#6 User is offline   Free 

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Posted 2004-May-11, 05:18

I usually play multi-landy vs weak NT, because you have a Double available for penalty:

Dbl = opening value
2 = 44+M OR semi-GF one-suiters (rebids 3+)
2 = 5+ card in any Major OR GF one-suiters (rebids 3+)
2M = 5M, 4+m
2NT = 55+m

Against strong NT you need a penalty double very rare, so I use it to be disruptive, playing some modified Meckwell:

Dbl = 5+m OR 44+M OR constructive hands (rebids 2 and higher)
2 = 44+ and another suit (both minors possible)
2 = 44+ and a Major
2M = natural, 5+M
2NT = 55+m

That way you have the advantages of DONT (all 44+ hands can be bid at 2-level, all single suiters as well), you have the advantage that 2 is natural, which takes a lot of bidding space away (as well as the possible trf to when you would have to double), but you still have a possible disadvantage of missing a 4-4/5-3/5-4 Major fit after the 2m overcall. However, if you have a good 5 card suit, you'll usually bid it immediatly and don't mention the minor, so that risk is already a lot less than playing DONT. And the possibility of opps bidding again when we have a 3-2 or 2-2 fit in one Major is pretty big. Btw, I don't hate Moysians, so playing a 4-3 fit at 2-level is no problem for me, it's a challenge!

About pulling the DONT-Dbl to penalty: it's not pretty imo! You don't know what your partner has in that suit, if he's really weak,... I think if you'd pass my DONT-Dbl, you'd be looking for a new partner.
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#7 User is offline   mishovnbg 

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Posted 2004-May-11, 06:21

vs strong NT -> While fighting for score is important to not give opps chance for new game by dbl us. The ONLY method by which you can fight by any suit and 2 suiter at 2 level is DONT. Merckwell version of DONT is also best ever possible meta defense (look for meta overcalls if you want details).
vs weak NT -> If you don't like experimental tries to dbl them, you can use same scheme, but with near opening values. The reason is main principle to not bid weak bids after weak openings, because statistically strong hand is next to you and penalty double is very easy after weak NT opening, while you are in sandwich.
Dbl in this case include also all stronger than simple overcall hands and is passable by partner, because promisse at least opening values.
Misho
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#8 User is offline   Fluffy 

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Posted 2004-May-11, 08:41

Hi all!

Instead of posting my own methods, which I supose nobody cares about Iīll try to analyse a bit DONT. (I canīt analyse capp, I just hate it so much, donīt wanna make biased analysis)

DONT is much more agressive, and so can be painy sometimes, why? Because it doesnīt give a free strrong double as rest artificial overcalls, that means, opponents can just double your artificial overcall to show strenght and then penalty if you find a missfit, instead you have to make your decision at first movement, when you donīt knwo if they will be playing on that suit or any other.

The downside is that it doesnīt let you rebid, so you will very hardly bid a game when they open.

In conclusion DONT is exactly what it means: disturb, never constructive, I donīt like it, but I agree sometimes can achieve success.

Cappeletti is the convention I most hate fom the standards online, I supose people play it against weak NT because it has its penalty double free, but so do much others. Anything you thin about in 5 minutes will be probably better.

If want my advice just play what Ron told and see how better results arrive.
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#9 User is offline   Trpltrbl 

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Posted 2004-May-11, 11:15

Strong NT
X = or Red Suits or Majors or Strong
2 = or / Major
2 = / Major
2 =
2 = weak

Weak NT
X = opening value 15+
2♣ = 44+M OR semi-GF one-suiters (rebids 3♣+)
2♦ = 5+ card in any Major OR GF one-suiters (rebids 3♣+)
2M = 5M/ 4+m
2NT = 5/ 5+m

Balancing Seat against Both
X = 5+m OR 44+M OR constructive hands
2♣ = 4/ 4+ ♣ and another suit (both minors possible)
2♦ = 4/ 4+ ♦ and a Major
2M = natural, 5+M
2NT = 5/5+m

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#10 User is offline   whereagles 

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Posted 2004-May-11, 11:47

I hate them all. Dont, Landy, Capp or whatever... I get sick if pard insists in using one of those.

Why? Because they all use 2-suited overcalls. Since you hardly ever get a decent 2-suited hand after opps open 1NT, you either keep passing the NT or start bidding on unsuitable hands.

The sort of hand that does come up very often after opps open 1NT is the balanced hand. That's the hand-type overcall systems should cater for. Unfortunately, not much research is done in this field. The only reasonable convention I know is a modified cansino version: 2 = 4+ 3+ 3+other suit, 2 = 4+ 3+ 3+ other suit, 2M = natural.
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#11 User is offline   Free 

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Posted 2004-May-11, 11:57

Whereagles, I don't know what kind of cardgame you play (perhaps something with only 44 cards in total), but two-suited 44+ hands come up A LOT! Even balanced 4432's are good enough to intervene, 5332's as single-suiters are also biddable. So I don't see any reason why to change the current methods, since I can intervene with about every handshape except 3-suiters or 4333's - which are both better to pass, since opps don't have anything to play comfortably.

As for trpltrbl, what is the big advantage of throwing all shapes in a mixer and put some meanings to every bid? Is the 2 bid passable?? Really weird that your other methods are EXACTLY the way I play them :blink: :angry:
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#12 User is offline   luis 

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Posted 2004-May-11, 12:02

Ah, the magic of the BBO forums. Each time somebody asks something about Dont or Capp everybody starts his post with "That's bad, I play...." followed by what every player thinks is the best convention against NT.
Since we've already had this discussion so many times why don't we just focus in answering the thread?

Now regarding your question:

I think Don't is better against a Weak NT because you can double with 5332 hands whenever you have 11+ hcp or a suitable hand. Pd can leave the double with values or remove to his shortest suit if he has a weakish hand.
I also think don't is better in 4th position against either weak or strong NTs, assuming you play Capp or Dont against strong NT you pass whenever you have a balanced hand with values so a 4th position double by pd can be ideal.
If your only options are Capp and Dont I'd recommend:
Dont vrs weak NT
Dont vrs strong NT in 4th position
Either Capp or Dont against strong NT in 2nd position

Luis

PS: I've played suction, dont, astpro, wolsey, capp and in my personal experience the success ratio is:
1) suction
2) dont
3) astpro
4) wolsey
... the abyss ....
98) capp
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#13 User is offline   Fouad 

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Posted 2004-May-11, 15:38

I played the 2 conventions for long times and found that it is better to play capp when we are red or in same vul ....and DONT is more effective if played when we are green against red

fo
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#14 User is offline   janicesze 

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Posted 2004-May-12, 01:15

Fouad, on May 11 2004, 04:38 PM, said:

I played the 2 conventions for long times and found that it is better to play capp when we are red or in same vul ....and DONT is more effective if played when we are green against red

fo

this is something i unexpected to have for reply =)

btw, how do you guys cope with being intervened?
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#15 User is offline   whereagles 

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Posted 2004-May-12, 02:19

Free, on May 11 2004, 12:57 PM, said:

Whereagles, I don't know what kind of cardgame you play (perhaps something with only 44 cards in total), but two-suited 44+ hands come up A LOT! Even balanced 4432's are good enough to intervene, 5332's as single-suiters are also biddable. So I don't see any reason why to change the current methods, since I can intervene with about every handshape except 3-suiters or 4333's - which are both better to pass, since opps don't have anything to play comfortably.

The card game I play is called "bridge" :o And I can't remember the last time I had a 54 two-suiter worth a dont overcall, but I do remember the last four times I had a balanced overcall (gave me 3 & 1/2 tops, by the way). If you want to start pretending 4432 is a two-suiter, you might as well play modified cansino, which at least guarantees a third suit for escape.. something a dont overcall doesn't. Anyway, it's all a matter of opinion and one shouldn't be dogmatic about which is better. I've given my opinion, as you have given yours. Other people will draw their conclusions.

Luis: sorry for the "dont/capp sucks, xxx is much better". I'm new around and didn't know this horse had already been spanked to death :o As for dont vs capp, I prefer dont. Though vs weak NT you should change the dont double to 1NT X=pen.
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#16 User is offline   EarlPurple 

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Posted 2004-May-12, 14:21

when you play astpro (or asptro as it's sometimes called) do you anchor in the shorter or the longer?

It has to be the shorter. The longer just doesn't work.
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