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Egoshooters 1 day - 2 countries - many victims

#21 User is offline   mikeh 

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Posted 2009-March-12, 11:35

luke warm, on Mar 12 2009, 11:52 AM, said:

mikeh, on Mar 12 2009, 11:13 AM, said:

In British Columbia, we are currently witnessing a gang war, with scores of shootings and dozens of dead~~

imagine for a second that in BC there was a total ban on guns, except for police and military... do you think these gang members would still own guns? if someone is already a criminal, do you think a law banning guns will make them less likely to add another criminal act (owning an illegal weapon) to their sheet?

but the issue runs deeper than that, at least in america

It depends.

We know that the war on drugs has enabled criminals to prosper without (it appears) doing much to reduce illicit drug use. We know that prohibition in the US didn't end alcohol consumption.

Yet analogies between consumption of banned substances and use of banned firearms are, in my view, arguably flawed. Few amongst us yearn to have a gun in the same manner as we may want a drink or a high. Guns are not inherently addictive, nor does their use (consumption) generally give pleasure, to the non-psychopathic amongst us. Even the thugs who use them in criminal activities often have them primarily as threats or as safeguards against competitors who are themselves armed. We can deduce this in part from the fact that gangs rarely get into shootouts with police or civilians... most victims of gang violence are themselves gang members.

The decision to consume crack or heroin is often driven by physiological addiction, or for non addicts by impulse.

The decision to use a firearm is also, in many cases, driven by impulse.

But the decision to acquire a firearm or to have it in one's car is more of a deliberate choice. And that is where deterrence comes into play.

A gang member, armed with a gun, who feels he has been 'disrespected' may well pull his weapon and attack the person who he perceives has dissed him, on impluse. But his decision to go to the club with the weapon, or to get the weapon in the first place, was likely more deliberate.

If this is true, then it seems to me that a VERY draconian policy, strictly enforced, to the effect that the carrying of a handgun WILL result in very severe penalties, would greatly impact the chances of the gang member carrying a weapon as a matter of course would be greatly reduced. I am generally against severe penal sanctions for most crimes.. I think that the approach used in the US, in many cases, is barbaric and inhumane. But there are some crimes for which I think the usual punishments are woefully inadequate. There are crimes for which I believe deterrence will often work, and crimes where it doesn't.

Deterrence doesn't work to deter a crack addict buying crack, or stealing a car to pay for his habit. But crimes that require deliberative action are more susceptible to rational analysis... not that this is always the determinative factor, as advances in psychology tell us. To me, if one KNOWS that being found with a handgun or automatic weapon will ALWAYS bring home real punishment, there is an excellent chance that many of the potential users will think twice.

And the less common it becomes to carry a gun in public, the less need there will be to do so.

Will this eliminate all gun violence? Of course not.

But I grew up in a country and in a time in which the police were, generally, not equipped with firearms... only a select few were even allowed to use them, and I think that even they had to sign them out if they received a call required armed response.

When criminals don't have guns, police don't either... and when no-one has guns, no-one needs them.
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#22 User is offline   jdonn 

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Posted 2009-March-12, 11:37

I think there is an inherent difference between substances, and items/objects/toys/things or however you want to classify guns. While alcohol certainly leads to lots of tragedies, you can only use it on yourself. If you are irresponsible and cause negative externalities then you should be punished and perhaps better controls should be implemented, but I don't think that is a reason for a ban. Guns, on the other hand, are specifically designed to be used on anything but yourself. They are (at least often) specifically designed to harm other humans. I don't view that the same way at all.
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#23 User is online   mike777 

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Posted 2009-March-12, 11:44

My concern is passing even more laws and regulations when we seem overwhelmed to enforce the ones we have will not help. I would hate to just pass more laws to just make us feel good.

As for ending prohibition in the USA it taught us that deaths and illness and crime rate went up not down from liquor. The Mafia did not disappear. Sort of like the argument to make Prostitution legal. In effect it just makes some prostitution legal and redistributes the demand by customers for the remaining illegal prostitution acts. The mob is still there and in business.

In any event this is all about the government trying to reduce the risk in our lives. What freedoms are we willing to trade off. It will be interesting to watch and learn from Canada and Europe.
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#24 User is offline   PassedOut 

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Posted 2009-March-12, 12:22

mikeh, on Mar 12 2009, 12:35 PM, said:

We know that the war on drugs has enabled criminals to prosper without (it appears) doing much to reduce illicit drug use. We know that prohibition in the US didn't end alcohol consumption.

Yes, I agree with libertarians and (some) conservatives that the war on drugs is a counterproductive failure. Legalizing drugs won't solve all drug problems, of course, but it will eliminate the most serious ones.
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#25 User is online   mike777 

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Posted 2009-March-12, 12:36

PassedOut, on Mar 12 2009, 01:22 PM, said:

mikeh, on Mar 12 2009, 12:35 PM, said:

We know that the war on drugs has enabled criminals to prosper without (it appears) doing much to reduce illicit drug use. We know that prohibition in the US didn't end alcohol consumption.

Yes, I agree with libertarians and (some) conservatives that the war on drugs is a counterproductive failure. Legalizing drugs won't solve all drug problems, of course, but it will eliminate the most serious ones.

I have heard this often but it seems just the opposite would happen. See what happened with Booze. Illegal Booze is a multi billion dollar business. The Mafia did not go away, in fact it grew and illness, crime and deaths from booze skyrocketed.

I assume if drugs are legal then, demand will soar, supply will soar, many new drugs will be invented to meet the demand. I assume that death and illness from drug use will soar as it did for booze. DUI killings.... I assume the drug lords will still sell and make billions from:
1) selling at lower than legal prices
2) selling whatever drugs/chemicals are still illegal
3) selling to minors....
4) mob involved in the Legal end of the bus.....
5) bribes for payoffs etc...


Of course we will encourage those involved in selling the stuff legally to cheat on taxes, sell off the books, etc etc......
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#26 User is online   mike777 

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Posted 2009-March-12, 12:42

PassedOut, on Mar 12 2009, 01:22 PM, said:

mikeh, on Mar 12 2009, 12:35 PM, said:

We know that the war on drugs has enabled criminals to prosper without (it appears) doing much to reduce illicit drug use. We know that prohibition in the US didn't end alcohol consumption.

Yes, I agree with libertarians and (some) conservatives that the war on drugs is a counterproductive failure. Legalizing drugs won't solve all drug problems, of course, but it will eliminate the most serious ones.

BTW I thought some countries did this and did not like the results. In any event perhaps some one can find some research on this subject on actual real world results. Again this may be a good thing to let the Europeans and Canada lead on and we can learn from.
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#27 User is offline   Aberlour10 

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Posted 2009-March-12, 13:48

mike777, on Mar 12 2009, 12:34 PM, said:

It will be interesting to see if Germany or for that matter Europe bans all guns in the home.

Knowing long-term points of view of political mainstream forces to this subject,....it will not happen in forseeable future in Germany for sure.

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#28 User is offline   blackshoe 

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Posted 2009-March-12, 13:58

Quote

This may be true in the U.S. where there are hundreds of millions of guns in circulation


In fact, nobody knows how many guns there are in private hands in the US.
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#29 User is offline   blackshoe 

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Posted 2009-March-12, 14:03

mikeh said:

Guns are not inherently addictive, nor does their use (consumption) generally give pleasure, to the non-psychopathic amongst us.


So anyone who enjoys hunting, or target shooting, or skeet shooting, or participating in certain Olympic events (can you say biathlon?) must be a psychopath? Come on, Mike, I thought better of you than this!
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#30 User is offline   mikeh 

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Posted 2009-March-12, 14:43

blackshoe, on Mar 12 2009, 03:03 PM, said:

mikeh said:

Guns are not inherently addictive, nor does their use (consumption) generally give pleasure, to the non-psychopathic amongst us.


So anyone who enjoys hunting, or target shooting, or skeet shooting, or participating in certain Olympic events (can you say biathlon?) must be a psychopath? Come on, Mike, I thought better of you than this!

Read both my earlier posts.. I hope it is clear that I was responding, in my last, to a comment from Jimmy, and that my first made it clear that my opposition to guns, and my suggestion that possession of such guns be severely punished, was aimed at handguns and automatic or semi-automatic weapons. Hunters don't generally hunt with handguns nor with machine pistols.

Nor do I see much evidence that competitive target shooters prefer to spray their target with 30 rounds in 2 seconds, rather than carefully aim a single bullet at a time, using a long barrelled weapon (and, yes, I know that there is such a thing as target shooting with a handgun... I also know that the type of gun designed for that use is not the type of gun favoured by gang members or b&e artists).

Ultimately, this entire argument goes to the type of society in which we would like to live. The protoypical US view is that the 'rights' of the individual have some mystical justification that warrants suppression of societal interests where they conflict with individual interests.

That is a philosophy that is ignored in virtually all areas of society other than gun ownership and health care. But it speaks to an image inculcated in Americans since early childhood. The same politicians who denounce gun control speak loudly in favour of warrentless wire tapping, or indefinite incarceration of 'enemy combatants', laws prohibiting same-sex marriage or abortion, and, of course, the war on drugs. Heaven forbid anyone enjoying cannibis... or entering into a solemn societally blessed union with a loved-one of the same gender! But meddle with guns and you are violating a sacred right to be an individual!

Of course, a similar caricature can be made about societies in which group welfare and goals are afforded greater relative weight. The usual US conservative riposte is to refer to communist societies, which is transparently a stupid analogy.. but social-democratic states such as Sweden, Germany and so on are appropriate ones, and there are examples of philosophical inconsistencies in their cultures as well (and I am not excluding Canada, either....nor any other country that aspires to any degree of individual freedom)

The arguments about what kills what, or about the 'benefits' of individual handgun ownership ultimately, it seems to me, boil down to these issues of balancing societal v individual rights. I reject the anthropologically false premise that we are an individualistic society... and, recognizing that we are social animals, I tend to emphasize societal goals as more important than individual ones... but, please, don't take this as saying that individual rights are non-existent or unimportant.. in my view, a reasonable society would recognize that the affording of individual freedoms is a primary concern until and unless such freedoms for some cause too much grief for others. I also see different but equally reasonable societies having different tipping points... but I know where mine exists on this issue.
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#31 User is offline   blackshoe 

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Posted 2009-March-12, 15:04

I said I was gonna stay out of this, and then I ... didn't. Shame on me.

All I'll say at this point is that societies, as such, don't have rights. People have rights. And it is fundamental that if person A has a certain right, person B can't take that right away from person A, and person B cannot get around that by getting together with person C, person D, etc. And I don't care how large you make the group.

Do with that whatever you like. I'm done with this thread. Really. B)
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#32 User is offline   mikeh 

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Posted 2009-March-12, 15:54

blackshoe, on Mar 12 2009, 04:04 PM, said:

I said I was gonna stay out of this, and then I ... didn't. Shame on me.

All I'll say at this point is that societies, as such, don't have rights. People have rights. And it is fundamental that if person A has a certain right, person B can't take that right away from person A, and person B cannot get around that by getting together with person C, person D, etc. And I don't care how large you make the group.

Do with that whatever you like. I'm done with this thread. Really. B)

Sorry, you're through :)

Seriously, though... would you not agree that the very notion of individual rights is, at its heart, a societal construct? Individual rights, as described in the US Constitution, don't arise or even exist, in any real form, in the absence of a societal consensus that affords them recognition and protection.

Consider: while the framers of the US constitution recognized, as self-evident, certain individual rights, they did so ONLY for adult white males :)

If individual rights have always had some inherent existence, why couldn't/didn't the framers of the constitution see them as applicable to african-americans or white women?

Consider: in primitive hunter-gatherer societies, the notions that we entertain about equality of opportunity, privacy, due process and so on are alien to everyone.

It seems to me to be inescapable: we are social animals, the rituals and habits we use to guide our interaction with fellow humans arise out of the dynamics of our groups. Our cultures have, at least in what we refer to as the West, developed along the lines of recognizing certain very limited individual freedoms.. which some members of some societies have fetishized.

No society treasures individual rights in the fashion that Blackshoe describes, including the US.

All US jurisdictions restrict many, many 'fundamental' individual rights.

I could be a genius and study extremely hard at home and actually train myself to be a good medical doctor, yet no state would let me practice medicine.. why?

I like to smoke... I like to go to a bar where everyone likes to smoke.. yet in many cities, I would be breaking the law if I did.

I could be a wonderful self-taught driver, yet I face criminal sanction if I don't get a licence.

Ditto re flying a plane over a city

And what if, for fun, I want to yell 'fire' in a crowded theatre?

Or if I wanted to send my hard-earned money off to Al Queada? To be used only to harm Afghani civilians?

Or I want to grow and smoke my own pot to relieve the symptoms of my incurable and painful disease? In an area equipped with a fan and filter so no one need be disturbed by the smell or smoke?

Or I want to have an abortion?

Or I want to marry a member of the same sex?

And so on.

The notion of sacrosanct human rights is demonstrably hypocritical in the mouths of many who assert it in defence of their position on any given issue... they vote for lots of restrictions on the 'rights' of others while proclaiming that their preference should be sacred.

I am not accusing any poster here of that.... this is an obseravtion aimed at most public figures who posture, not individuals prepared to debate.

Also.. everything I post in the WC has to be taken, no matter how strongly worded, as an expression of OPINION... I claim no privileged position with respect to my views on anything in the WC, even if it sounds as if I do B)
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#33 User is offline   jdonn 

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Posted 2009-March-12, 17:38

blackshoe, on Mar 12 2009, 04:04 PM, said:

I said I was gonna stay out of this, and then I ... didn't. Shame on me.

All I'll say at this point is that societies, as such, don't have rights. People have rights. And it is fundamental that if person A has a certain right, person B can't take that right away from person A, and person B cannot get around that by getting together with person C, person D, etc. And I don't care how large you make the group.

Do with that whatever you like. I'm done with this thread. Really. B)

I could simplify what I think Mike is saying by saying this.

It is nothing more than your opinion that individuals have rights but societies don't. America and Europe view that question very differently, as one example. But almost anywhere, society is given many rights that limit individual freedoms. For example, there are speed limits since society's right to not be put in danger of being crashed into is thought to supercede your right to go as fast as you want. Similar reasoning for why smoking is banned in certain public places (here anyway), and numerous other things.
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#34 User is offline   hanp 

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Posted 2009-March-12, 17:42

I think one of his other points (the hypocracy of choosing what we do and what we do not see as rights) is at least as strong.
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#35 User is offline   kenberg 

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Posted 2009-March-12, 18:28

"Rights are a social construct" fits my views pretty well. If we go back to the Founding Documents, of course there is a claim that certain things are self-evident. But when it came to writing the law of the land, it begins "We the people, in order to form a more perfect union..." . Nothing there about anything being self-evident and I like it that way.

With regard to guns and a more perfect union, the fact is i am just so damn lucky. No one seems to want to kill me, minor acts of vandalism seem to be the tough crime problem we have locally, and so on. Some people live in some pretty shitty neighborhoods. If I were forced to live there for a while, I probably would by [or maybe even buy B)]a gun. Whether I should be able to do so is another issue of course. I don't think that the answer is obvious.
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#36 User is online   mike777 

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Posted 2009-March-12, 19:18

"Guns are just one issue, bottom line this is about government doing much much more to reduce risk in our life."

-----


"Some people live in some pretty shitty neighborhoods. If I were forced to live there for a while, I probably would by a gun. Whether I should be able to do so is another issue of course. I don't think that the answer is obvious."

----

"In any event this is all about the government trying to reduce the risk in our lives. What freedoms are we willing to trade off. It will be interesting to watch and learn from Canada and Europe. "
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#37 User is offline   Codo 

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Posted 2009-March-13, 01:56

Everybody can compare some simple facts:

Where are more people injured/killed by others?

A. In states like the US with liberal laws according to guns?
B. In states which try to find a balance between social needs and individual rights like Sweden or Germany?
C. Totalitarian states like China?
D. No longer existing states like Somalia
E. States with a very big difference between poor and rich like Brazilia or India?

You can find out on yourself. As a clue: I am really happy to live here.

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#38 User is offline   Hanoi5 

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Posted 2009-March-13, 03:31

I believe most Swiss people have a gun at home, a rifle in fact. How many accidents of these type have ocurred in Switzerland? I strongly believe that the solution to most problems lies in education.

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#39 User is offline   Aberlour10 

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Posted 2009-March-13, 04:44

Hanoi5, on Mar 13 2009, 04:31 AM, said:

I believe most Swiss people have a gun at home, a rifle in fact. How many accidents of these type have ocurred in Switzerland?

There were many single accidents happened with these weapons. So, the former swiss military service men are still permitted to keep their weapon at home but!!!! ... the swiss parliament prohibited private storage of military ammunition for these guns in 2007.

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Military guns are used in 280 gun deaths a year in Switzerland, according to reserach by Professor Martin Killias of Lausanne University. This is the equivalent of a gun death rate of 3.7 deaths per 100,000 people, which is higher than the gun death rate in most other Western European countries, for all types of guns, not just military guns


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#40 User is offline   luke warm 

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Posted 2009-March-13, 05:14

jdonn, on Mar 12 2009, 06:38 PM, said:

blackshoe, on Mar 12 2009, 04:04 PM, said:

I said I was gonna stay out of this, and then I ... didn't. Shame on me.

All I'll say at this point is that societies, as such, don't have rights. People have rights. And it is fundamental that if person A has a certain right, person B can't take that right away from person A, and person B cannot get around that by getting together with person C, person D, etc. And I don't care how large you make the group.

Do with that whatever you like. I'm done with this thread. Really. :lol:

I could simplify what I think Mike is saying by saying this.

It is nothing more than your opinion that individuals have rights but societies don't. America and Europe view that question very differently, as one example. But almost anywhere, society is given many rights that limit individual freedoms. For example, there are speed limits since society's right to not be put in danger of being crashed into is thought to supercede your right to go as fast as you want. Similar reasoning for why smoking is banned in certain public places (here anyway), and numerous other things.

i think it's self-evident that societies do have rights, but those rights are given by the governed... since, in the founders' view, we (the governed, or the individual) have the God-given rights of life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness, the role of gov't is to function in a way that limits those rights as little as possible... that's simply a matter of political philosophy, and i understand that other societies don't share the view of the founders
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