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BID when ops o/call in NT. Missed cold game

#1 User is offline   jmcw 

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Posted 2009-March-06, 07:19

Scoring: MP
Partner Opens 1 which is overcalled 1NT (15/18). How do you proceed, what's the plan?.
Must you take immediate action or can you back in? <_<
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#2 User is offline   FrancesHinden 

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Posted 2009-March-06, 07:31

I would start with a penalty double and see what happens next.
You have to act now with a good hand, or 1NT may end the auction.
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#3 User is offline   hotShot 

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Posted 2009-March-06, 07:43

LHO is left with almost no points, so we should make it hard for him to enter the auction.
So I would bid 2 now and see how things develop. I don't think about game now, but we obviously hold more HCP than opps and out first goal should be to find a reasonable fit. Once we find a fit, the shortage in may be valuable enough to get us to game.
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#4 User is offline   FrancesHinden 

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Posted 2009-March-06, 07:52

hotShot, on Mar 6 2009, 01:43 PM, said:

LHO is left with almost no points, so we should make it hard for him to enter the auction.
So I would bid 2 now and see how things develop. I don't think about game now, but we obviously hold more HCP than opps and out first goal should be to find a reasonable fit. Once we find a fit, the shortage in may be valuable enough to get us to game.

You seem to be assuming that 2D is forcing.
Traditionally all 2-level bids now are weak, so 2D will end the auction. Good hands start with a double (or 2NT, game forcing distributional, which isn't appropriate here).
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#5 User is offline   mtvesuvius 

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Posted 2009-March-06, 08:38

Penalty double, IMO all 2 level bids are NF, so in order to show a strong(ish) hand, you must double first. In addition, more and more people love to psych 1NT, making it even more important to show your strength on your first round. X simply shows 9+ points or so, and then you can bid from there.
Yay for the "Ignored Users" feature!
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#6 User is offline   kenberg 

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Posted 2009-March-06, 08:42

I would start with a double. If the double is followed by three passes this could get trick if it turns out I cannot run my diamonds. Nonetheless, I think this is our hand and the double is the best way to get that across right away.
Ken
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#7 User is offline   rbforster 

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Posted 2009-March-06, 08:57

FrancesHinden, on Mar 6 2009, 08:31 AM, said:

I would start with a penalty double and see what happens next.

For everyone who plays the standard X=penalty, bidding is weak approach, what's your call after:

1-(1N)-X-(2*) *transfer
P-(2)-?

3 I guess, or maybe 3? Is 3 game forcing or just invitational?
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#8 User is offline   FrancesHinden 

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Posted 2009-March-06, 09:59

Quote

For everyone who plays the standard X=penalty, bidding is weak approach, what's your call after:

1♠-(1N)-X-(2D*) *transfer
P-(2♥)-?

3D I guess, or maybe 3♥? Is 3D game forcing or just invitational?


We haven't got into the detail of what partner's pass over 2D meant.

Against the auction 1S (1NT) x (2H to play)
we play that opener can
- make a forcing pass, either penalties or extra values
- make a doubleton take-out double
- bid to show extra distribution but little extra strength

After 1S (1NT) x (2D) we have an extra round of bidding.

In the similar auction (1NT) x (2D transfer) we play that 4th hand can pass with weakness and double with some values; the former turns off the forcing pass. However in this auction both opener and responder have shown values, so there's no need to turn off the forcing pass.

To be honest, I've come up against anyone who actual plays transfers on the auction 1S 1NT x P, so we've never discussed this particular point. What I assume we play is

x = take-out of diamonds (implying x of 2H is now penalties), to manage the possibility of overcaller passing out 2D, or when they don't know if 2D is a transfer or not.

2H = heart shortage, not prepared to defend 2Hx
2S/3C/3D = light in high cards but extra distribution.
immediate 2NT = who knows?
jumps = lots of extra distribution

So when opener passes over 2D he's got some diamond length and nothing else special to say. Over this I can double 2H for take-out (which I won't do on a singleton, as I'm not prepared to defend 2Hx opposite a 5=4=2=2). I can bid 2S non-forcing.

Here I now play 2NT by resopnder as lebensohl, and 3D as forcing.

I'd probably just bite the bullet and game force on this hand, but I might be influenced by the thread title!
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#9 User is offline   kenrexford 

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Posted 2009-March-06, 10:01

This makes me think...

I'm used to what I think is called "Lair," namely that a call of 2 in this sequence is a "substitute" for a negative double. If so, can a person using Lair bid 2 and then override later, sort of like what negative doubles means in the context of negative free bids?
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#10 User is offline   FrancesHinden 

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Posted 2009-March-06, 10:23

kenrexford, on Mar 6 2009, 04:01 PM, said:

This makes me think...

I'm used to what I think is called "Lair," namely that a call of 2 in this sequence is a "substitute" for a negative double. If so, can a person using Lair bid 2 and then override later, sort of like what negative doubles means in the context of negative free bids?

I've never heard of this, but the immediate question is if 2C is forcing... I assume if it's a 'negative double' then partner can pass. In which case you can't do it on a good hand.
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#11 User is offline   kenrexford 

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Posted 2009-March-06, 10:33

FrancesHinden, on Mar 6 2009, 11:23 AM, said:

kenrexford, on Mar 6 2009, 04:01 PM, said:

This makes me think...

I'm used to what I think is called "Lair," namely that a call of 2 in this sequence is a "substitute" for a negative double.  If so, can a person using Lair bid 2 and then override later, sort of like what negative doubles means in the context of negative free bids?

I've never heard of this, but the immediate question is if 2C is forcing... I assume if it's a 'negative double' then partner can pass. In which case you can't do it on a good hand.

Actually, I think it is forcing. Not sure.

The bids works "like" a negative double. After a minor opening, Responder should have both majors. After a major opening, Responder is expected to have four of the other major and a doubleton/tolerance for the opened major. "Expected" may mean that Responder could have any other wild shape that needs to force rather than double, perhaps.
"Gibberish in, gibberish out. A trial judge, three sets of lawyers, and now three appellate judges cannot agree on what this law means. And we ask police officers, prosecutors, defense lawyers, and citizens to enforce or abide by it? The legislature continues to write unreadable statutes. Gibberish should not be enforced as law."

-P.J. Painter.
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