[H_KARLUK]

paulhar, on Feb 28 2009, 10:02 PM, said:

You hold:

Q 3 2
A J 4 3
K Q 4
J 5 3

It's your call over partner's 1S bid and you play 2/1 game forcing and 1NT absolutely forcing. Your choice?

2♥

[mike777]

H_KARLUK, on Mar 1 2009, 07:24 AM, said:

paulhar, on Feb 28 2009, 10:02 PM, said:

You hold:

Q 3 2
A J 4 3
K Q 4
J 5 3

It's your call over partner's 1S bid and you play 2/1 game forcing and 1NT absolutely forcing.  Your choice?

2♥

I think if 2h is best you need to define what you think opener has and why 2h is best over that.

I note others just say......I know what opener has......and I do not bid 2h......

[H_KARLUK]

Does it really diffs when opener has only Major suits honors? Say AKJxx and KQ hearts there.. Then immediate losers are 3 clubs and a diamonds. I dont get it why someone supposed to give a chance to opps for a lead directing X using 2C relay.

1S>1N
2C(may be short, 3+); 2D same (5-3-3-2 limit)
One allowed to bid 2C over 1NF1 with such a collection : AKxxx-Kxx-xx-Kxx or AKxxx- KQx-Jx-xxx

So 2C/D rebids do not guarantee good high cards there.

I dont think given above auction one knows more than "opener has not 4 times hearts".

So tell me th honours you like to be with yr partner to reach a reasonable level game.

I believe 2H most constructive "natural" bid rather than 2C/D relays and even F1N. At least 4 pcs decent cards and I do not think gives trouble to opener with any shape and range. It shouldnt get as waste of economy of space.

Th barrier to use 2H card is 4 times? Ok I borrowed a card on H suit But th others use 2C/2D with 3 cards.

[hrothgar]

For what its worth, I'd probably bid 3NT

3N = Natural, nonforcing, doesn't show 3 Spades. Just says that 3N looks to be a reasonable game.

[helene_t]

Hi Hamdi,

2♣ is not a relay. It's a natural bid, so opps don't play lead directing doubles on it.

It is the "correct" bid with this hand since 2♦ shows 4+ while 2♣ shows 3+. The question is if it is practical to bid a suit in which we have no honours. P may misevaluate, for example he may think that his singleton clubs is a bad thing.

If you bid 2♥ partner will think you have 5 of them and support with 3. Of course you can still correct 4♥ to 4♠ but that's a shame if partner has four hearts and 4♥ is better than 4♠.

Of course the same is true if you bid 2♦ but we know that we don't belong in 5♦ and even if p suggests 6♦ we will know it is right to correct to 6♠.

Another issue is if the hand is strong enough for a 2/1 response in the first place.

[aguahombre]

awm, on Feb 28 2009, 11:38 PM, said:

I'm somewhat concerned that this is a hand where 3nt could very easily be the only making game. Starting with 1NT and bidding 4♠ later bypasses what could be the best contract!

I'd start with 2♣ planning to rebid 3NT over a 3♣ raise and rebid 2♠ over 2-red.

a forcing notrump followed by 3NT is an idle sequence unless you are playing J2N, which we don't. therefore we use it to describe this type of 3 card raise hand, leaving the choice up to opener whether to pass or or pull to the major.

[hrothgar]

H_KARLUK, on Mar 1 2009, 05:27 PM, said:

My friend Mike

Does it really diffs when opener has only Major suits honors? Say AKJxx and KQ hearts there.. Then immediate losers are 3 clubs and a diamonds. I dont get it why someone supposed to give a chance to opps for a lead directing X using 2C relay.

1S>1N
2C(may be short, 3+); 2D same (5-3-3-2 limit)
One allowed to bid 2C over 1NF1 with such a collection : AKxxx-Kxx-xx-Kxx or AKxxx- KQx-Jx-xxx

So 2C/D rebids do not guarantee good high cards there.

I dont think given above auction one knows more than "opener has not 4 times hearts".

So tell me pls th honours you like to be with yr partner to reach a reasonable level game. Then we may decide.

I believe 2H most constructive "natural" bid rather than 2C/D relays and even F1N. At least 4 pcs decent cards and I do not think gives trouble to opener with any shape and range. It shouldnt get as waste of economy of space.

Th barrier to use 2H card is 4 times? Ok I borrowed a card on H suit But th others use 2C/2D with 3 cards.

You're missing a pretty basic point:

A 2♥ response burns much more bidding space than 2♣ or 2♦.
Most people would argue that a 2♥ should show a more limited set of hands than 2m.

Or, more practically, a 2♥ should promises 5+ pieces.
Balanced hand types get shoved into 2♣ and 2♦.

[H_KARLUK]

helene_t, on Mar 1 2009, 04:49 PM, said:

2♣ is not a relay. It's a natural bid, so opps don't play lead directing doubles on it.

4♥ to 4♠ but that's a shame if partner has four hearts and 4♥ is better than 4♠.

Of course the same is true if you bid 2♦ but we know that we don't belong in 5♦ and even if p suggests 6♦ we will know it is right to correct to 6♠.

Another issue is if the hand is strong enough for a 2/1 response in the first place.

1) Lefty has ♣AKQx(+) and ♦A with mostly natural based defence methods in their CC. Pass ? No!
2) 5/3 or 4/4 depends quality. I prefer 5/3. More ruff potential. If p has 4 times ♥ won't simply raise 3 ♥? If partner has 5-3 (3-2 2-3) who knows 2NT in a good day? Moreover I would like to see his best 3♣ rebid which probably cover cards there. I do not need to read ♦, already KQx at hand.
3) Two over one does not mean strong responses ?
To me responder's Q32 AJ43 KQ4 J53 collection means 10.90 KnR points, 24 Zar, 11+ Kleinman, Honor tricks 2½. So just opening count values. I think if when one would add ♣ A then would be a really "strong enough hand".

[awm]

gnasher, on Mar 1 2009, 03:16 AM, said:

awm, on Mar 1 2009, 05:38 AM, said:

I'd start with 2♣ planning to rebid 3NT over a 3♣ raise

Isn't that just as much a guess as bidding 4♠? There are many hands where partner would pass 3NT and 4♠ is the right spot, for example AKxxx xx xx KQxx or KJxxx Kxx x AKxx.

Quote

and rebid 2♠ over 2-red.

With the start 1♠-2♣;2♠, which sequences will enable you to choose 3NT with confidence?

3NT is actually not that bad opposite those hands. It is almost cold if the ♦A is onside, and has play if diamonds are not lead or if the key black suit ace is in the same hand with the diamond ace. 4♠ is cold if trumps are 3-2 (yes, this is a bit better than ♦A on) but doesn't really have any play if spades break 4-1, whereas 3NT still might scramble home. So while I'd rate 4♠ as a slightly better game, I don't think it's a huge difference.

Basically my plan is to:

(1) Always play 3NT if partner is 5(332) by starting 2♣ and raising partner's 2NT rebid to 3NT, or bidding 2NT over partner's 2♠ rebid and then passing 3NT. This also has the advantage of deterring a club opening lead.

(2) Always play in 4M if partner has a four-card red suit. The idea is that the 4-4 heart fit will probably be a good game, and that if partner has four diamonds then he either has short hearts (in which case my AJxx holding is quite good) or at most two clubs (which means clubs are quite dangerous for notrump).

(3) Normally play in 3NT if partner has 5♠-4♣. Obviously this could be right or could be wrong, but if partner has short diamonds I'm willing to bet that 3NT is often a better game because of the huge amount of wastage.