[dicklont]

We had a funny situation in this auction:

(p) - 1♦ - (p) - 2♣
2♠ - 3♣ - (p) - 3♦
(p) - 4NT - (p) - ?

Which king is the fifth keycard now, ♣K or ♦K?
We were not on the same wavelength, but had luck on our side.

Scoring: MP

p - 1♦ - p - 2♣
2♠ - 3♣ - p 3♦
p - 4NT - p - 5♠
p - 5NT - p - 6♦
p - p - p

---

North was responding for ♣ and showed the King.
South was asking for ♦ and thought north held ♠A.
He wanted to play a grand when north held ♣K and asked for it with 5NT.

Now north got creative.
Although he had no extra king he decided to show ♦Q, which partner - who certainly looks at ♦K - would understand .....
South needed ♣K for the grand slam in diamonds and passed.

All is well that ends well, but the question remains: "which king is the fifth keycard, ♣K or ♦K?"

[jillybean]

"It depends" but lacking any agreements I would say K♣.

[Little Kid]

I would assume diamond rkc as it is the last bid suit, South could probably have bid 4♣ or so if he really wanted to set up clubs as trump in search of slam.

[helene_t]

Agree with Little Kid. Also because if you don't play inverted minors, 2♣ will sometimes be a fake suit.

But both kings will usually be equally important so it would be even better to play 6-cases blackwood.

[vang]

"It depends" but lacking any agreements I would say last supported suit.

[kenrexford]

Solve the problem for next time:

If clubs and diamonds are both in focus,
4♥ = RKCB for clubs
4♠ = RKCB for diamonds

You could even then opt 4NT (or 4♦) as RKCB for both.

Alternatively, 4♣/4♦ could be the RKCB bids, or 4♦/4♥.

Heck, in this auction you could even use:

4♣ = RKCB clubs
4♦ = RKCB diamonds
4♥ = 6KCB
4♠ = Exclusion ♠, clubs
4NT = Exclusion ♠, diamonds

3♦...4NT as Guess-the-strain-keycard seems less interesting.

[Fluffy]

I have very clear agreements: If 2 suits are bid and raised, or if a 5-5 is bid opposite a balanced hand, then it is a 6 keycard blackwood.

Wich trump queen does 5♠ show is another question often asked (we play 5NT shows both queens, it has never made any difference actually)

---

Last time I had confusion, I answered in diamonds, then partner bid 6♥, looking at my hand there was a lovelly ♥K and decided that I missbid the KCB answer before and raised to 7.

When it was doubled I realiced that I Was right the first time .

[gnasher]

kenrexford, on Feb 13 2009, 01:37 PM, said:

Solve the problem for next time:

If clubs and diamonds are both in focus,
4♥ = RKCB for clubs
4♠ = RKCB for diamonds

You could even then opt 4NT (or 4♦) as RKCB for both.

Alternatively, 4♣/4♦ could be the RKCB bids, or 4♦/4♥.

Heck, in this auction you could even use:

4♣ = RKCB clubs
4♦ = RKCB diamonds
4♥ = 6KCB
4♠ = Exclusion ♠, clubs
4NT = Exclusion ♠, diamonds

3♦...4NT as Guess-the-strain-keycard seems less interesting.

That sounds awfully complicated. Personally I'd solve the "problem" by bidding a natural 4♣ or 4♦ now, then an unambiguous 4NT on the next round.

[ASkolnick]

Right or wrong, I play "first agreed or last bid suit". Not necessarily optimum, but does avoid confusion.

[Gerben42]

♣ are trumps as they were voluntarily raised. Partner would have bid 2♦ directly to make ♦ trumps. After all, 3♦ was only bid to make partner evaluate his hand better.

Quote

Right or wrong, I play "first agreed or last bid suit". Not necessarily optimum, but does avoid confusion.

So which one do you play? First agreed is ♣, last bid is ♦. That's what the confusion is about.

[peachy]

My agreement with partners with whom I have it discussed is that the RKC is in the suit of:
a ) bid and raised (in any manner, like via cuebid of opp's suit)
b ) if two suits bid and raised, the last supported suit
c ) if no suit supported, the last _bid_ suit

Based on this, for me the RKC is as if diamonds were trump.

[rbforster]

ASkolnick, on Feb 13 2009, 11:10 AM, said:

Right or wrong, I play "first agreed or last bid suit". Not necessarily optimum, but does avoid confusion.

Aren't they different in this case? I'm confused.

[HeavyDluxe]

Agree with Little Kid and Helene. I think ♦s are in focus here.

I also agree with gnasher that, absent a clear agreement on whether 'first raised' or 'last bid' takes priority, a natural bid at the 4-level would've helped.

[P_Marlowe]

Hi,

Clubs: Given the auction, club was the agreed trump suit.
3D was just a cue, showing values.

6D as answer to 5NT makes no sense, sry.
5S said, for me clubs is trump, and now 5NT is looking
for a grand, but having min. 6C is the bid.

With kind regards
Marlowe

[ahri]

I'd humbly say it's 6KC Blackwood here in my partnerships. You need both kings to make grand anyway.

[skjaeran]

Gerben42, on Feb 13 2009, 05:22 PM, said:

♣ are trumps as they were voluntarily raised. Partner would have bid 2♦ directly to make ♦ trumps. After all, 3♦ was only bid to make partner evaluate his hand better.

Quote

Right or wrong, I play "first agreed or last bid suit". Not necessarily optimum, but does avoid confusion.

So which one do you play? First agreed is ♣, last bid is ♦. That's what the confusion is about.

Huh, what he meant is that first agreed if one or more suits has been supported, last bid when no suit has been supported.

[y66]

Bridge World Standard:

Quote

In KCB, absent an explicit agreement, the priority order for determining the agreed suit is: the only supported suit; the only shown suit; the most recently shown suit.

[007 joosth]

dicklont, on Feb 13 2009, 01:53 AM, said:

We had a funny situation in this auction:

(p) - 1♦ - (p) - 2♣
2♠ - 3♣ - (p) - 3♦
(p) - 4NT - (p) - ?

Which king is the fifth keycard now, ♣K or ♦K?
We were not on the same wavelength, but had luck on our side.

Scoring: MP

p - 1♦ - p - 2♣
2♠ - 3♣ - p 3♦
p - 4NT - p - 5♠
p - 5NT - p - 6♦
p - p - p

---

North was responding for ♣ and showed the King.
South was asking for ♦ and thought north held ♠A.
He wanted to play a grand when north held ♣K and asked for it with 5NT.

Now north got creative.
Although he had no extra king he decided to show ♦Q, which partner - who certainly looks at ♦K - would understand .....
South needed ♣K for the grand slam in diamonds and passed.

All is well that ends well, but the question remains: "which king is the fifth keycard, ♣K or ♦K?"

I dont see the need for a fake 2C bid. So after 2C - 3C that suit is agreed.
3D must be a cuebid now. Now S can do RKB. Following the Kantar-methods 4D will be the asking. The result is lower bidding-level and possibilities to look for a grant-slam. Here an ace is missing and a choice betweem 6NT and 6C is remaining.
Though Kantar also writes about RKB with 6 keycards I'm still waiting at the moment where you need it. Up to know SKA and SSA worked as well.

[straube]

First, this auction doesn't make sense unless 2C is GF because opener wouldn't simply raise clubs and then RKC later unless he knew 3C was forcing.

So the next question is whether the partnership plays inverted minors (or has a forcing diamond raise available).

If so, then clubs should be trump unless the partnership specifically decides to have an (I think stupid) agreement to the contrary. 3D shows a control (probably ace) of diamonds

If not, then diamonds should be trump because 2C can be an artificial way to enter a GF and the 3D bid would then show a diamond fit. 2C did not show clubs.

I don't think that having 6 key cards is a solution here because either way, the partnership hasn't necessarily shown a double fit.

[kenrexford]

Some have mentioned my underlying thought. 3♦ may or may not have established a second trump fit. It might for some be bid with Hx, no? Or even stiff honor?

I think the solution of 4♣ and 4♦ as natural and absolute trump sets clarifies the ambiguity, but at the high price of eating up a lot of space otherwise useful for advancing the cause.

I think personally that simple 4♥ for clubs 4♠ for diamonds solves the problem equally well, while preserving 4♣ and 4♦ for alternative purposes.