[FrancesHinden]

Once you've recovered from your irritation at being in the wrong contract, here are a few questions:

Do you know the right line in trumps as a suit in isolation?
Do you have any other considerations on this hand?
How to you play 6♠?

Scoring: IMP

1♠ P 2♦ P
3♣ P 3♠ P
4♣ P 4NT P
5♠ P 6♠ all pass

---

2♦ = 9+, F2♠ only
3♣ = 16+ FG
3♠ = 3-card support, limit raise values or better


edit: I missed a round of the auction, we each cue bid a red suit before RKCB came out. Don't think it matters.

LHO leads the 10 of hearts, RHO plays low.
I recommend you win with the ace, but that's not the point of the hand.

This post has been edited by FrancesHinden: 2009-February-15, 14:07

[Fluffy]

I have no idea what is the best, I would play low to the queen and low to the 10.
This works very poorly against 4-1 breaks, but nothing in the hand makes me sspect opponents are not balanced.

If going for this line, I think winning ♥K is best.

[ewj]

Whack out the ace first then, if no K/J falls on my right or K/J/9 on my left, small one to the queen.

If the K/J falls on my right then I'd come back my hand and run the 8...so I could get done by J9 or K9 tight on my right...

If the K/J/9 falls on my left, I'd run the ten on the next round..

Playing big at trick 1 is probably the best bet entrywise...

[gnasher]

For the suit in isolation, the possible lines I would consider are:
(1) Low to the 10, then cash ace. Works against East's xx, xxx, Jxx, Kx, Kxx, KJ, 9, Jxxx, Kxxx.
(2) Low to the queen, then low to the 10. Works against East's xx, xxx, Kx, Kxx, KJx, KJ, J.
(3) Run the queen; if that loses to the king, finesse the 10; if the queen is covered, lead to the 10. Works against East's xx, xxx, J9, J64, Kx, Kxx, 9, J.
(4) Run the queen; if that loses to the king, finesse the 10; if the queen is covered, run the 8. Works against East's 64, xxx, Jx J64, Kx, Kxx, 6, 9, J.
(5) Run the 8; if that loses to the jack or king, finesse the 10; otherwise cash the ace. Works against East's 64, xxx, J6, J4, Jxx, K9, Kxx, 6, K. (I've assumed that when the cards are 9xx-KJ, West will play the nine on the second round.)

(1) appears to be the best of those. Compared to (2), it scores equally well on the 3-2 breaks, but gains against more 4-1s. I find that a bit surprising. Have I missed something?

Edit:
(6) Cash the ace and lead to the queen (ewj's suggestion). Works against East's xxx, Jx, Kx, Kxx, KJ, KJx, K (but not J, assuming they'd also play J from J9).
(7) Cash the ace and lead to the queen, except if West plays the nine on the first round, in which case we run the 10. As good as (6) on the 3-2s, but also picks up KJ64.

I think (7) is still one 4-1 break worse than (1).

This post has been edited by gnasher: 2009-February-15, 11:51

[hatchett]

Low to the Q does not work against east having J, you lose two tricks to the K and 9.

Cashing the ace first does not lose to someone playing the K from K9!

[ewj]

Low to the Queen does work against East having J...finesse the ten on the 2nd round...


Ok yes a silly comment

This post has been edited by ewj: 2009-February-15, 12:24

[skjaeran]

My gut reaction was low to the ten, then cash the ace.

Gnasher does a good job going through the possibilities.

The Official Encyclopedia of Bridge says that the best line for four tricks with ATx vs Qxxxx is small to the ace followed by small to the queen. But we've got the 8, which changes things a little.

[hatchett]

Quote

Low to the Queen does work against East having J...finesse the ten on the 2nd round...

LOL. First trick goes 3 J Q K. and you want to finesse the T on the next round???

[ewj]

Assuming I get done by either opponent playing the J from J9 doubleton,

(7) Picks up the following with RHO...

964
J64, KJ64 (when 9 falls)
J6, J4
KJ6, KJ9, KJ4
K96, K94 but not K64
K
J (I'm assuming I get done by a false card)
KJ, K4 K6 K9
J964
K964



(1) picks up
96, 94, 64
964
J64, J94
K4, K6, K9
K94, K64, K96
KJ
9
J964
K964

(7) looks a winner.

[TimG]

ewj, on Feb 15 2009, 01:22 PM, said:

Assuming I get done by either opponent playing the J from J9 doubleton,

(7) Picks up the following with RHO...

964
J64, KJ64 (when 9 falls)
J6, J4
KJ6, KJ9, KJ4
K96, K94 but not K64
K
J (I'm assuming I get done by a false card)
KJ, K4 K6 K9
J964
K964

How about Ace followed by:

If west plays the Nine, run the Ten else
low from dummy and play Queen if east plays low or Jack, play low if east plays the Nine?

Isn't this the same as (7), trading K9x in east for J9x in east?

[FrancesHinden]

ewj, on Feb 15 2009, 06:22 PM, said:

Assuming I get done by either opponent playing the J from J9 doubleton,

(7) Picks up the following with RHO...

964
J64, KJ64 (when 9 falls)
J6, J4
KJ6, KJ9, KJ4
K96, K94 but not K64
K
J (I'm assuming I get done by a false card)
KJ, K4 K6 K9
J964
K964



(1) picks up
96, 94, 64
964
J64, J94
K4, K6, K9
K94, K64, K96
KJ
9
J964
K964

(7) looks a winner.

Your counting has (7) winning by two of the 4-1 breaks compared to (1), and breaking even on the 3-2s.

You can improve (7) slightly by
(i) Giving up on KJ64 on your right in favour of K64 (J9 doubleton on your left is more likely than singleton 9; and LHO has can never gain from playing the jack from J9)
(ii) giving up on singleton Jack on your right in favour of picking up J9 doubleton, assuming they will always play the J from that (one 3-2 break is better than one 4-1 break).

i.e. gaining two 3-2 breaks at the cost of two 4-1 breaks (I think this is back to gnasher's line 6 in fact)

I'm pleased to see everyone struggles with this suit because I struggled with it at the table, and I couldn't write down my workings.

Anyway, even if we've decided this the right line in the suit, what's the right line in 6S?

[TimG]

FrancesHinden, on Feb 15 2009, 02:54 PM, said:

You can improve (7) slightly by
(i) Giving up on KJ64 on your right in favour of K64 (J9 doubleton on your left is more likely than singleton 9; and LHO has can never gain from playing the jack from J9)

I assume you mean by not running the Ten when West plays the Nine under the Ace. Doesn't that mean you also lose when West holds K9?

[FrancesHinden]

TimG, on Feb 15 2009, 08:02 PM, said:

FrancesHinden, on Feb 15 2009, 02:54 PM, said:

You can improve (7) slightly by
(i) Giving up on KJ64 on your right in favour of K64 (J9 doubleton on your left is more likely than singleton 9; and LHO has can never gain from playing the jack from J9)

I assume you mean by not running the Ten when West plays the Nine under the Ace. Doesn't that mean you also lose when West holds K9?

Yes.

That must be why I couldn't get my answer to agree exactly with suitplay on the relative percentages*

*I agree with the principle that one should work these things out without resorting to software, but I'm ahead of all the posters, because I spent a good 10 minutes at the table trying to do it in my head first, followed by about the same time the next morning by a pen and paper.

**p.p.s after a few of the disastrous slams I've posted here recently, whether or not I took the right line, we gained 14 imps and won the match by 10 imps...

[FrancesHinden]

skaeran, on Feb 15 2009, 06:05 PM, said:

The Official Encyclopedia of Bridge says that the best line for four tricks with ATx vs Qxxxx is small to the ace followed by small to the queen. But we've got the 8, which changes things a little.

Yes. I even knew this one off by heart. But certainly having both the 8 and the 7 changes things.

[gnasher]

ewj, on Feb 15 2009, 07:22 PM, said:

(7) Picks up the following with RHO...

964
J64, KJ64 (when 9 falls)
J6, J4
KJ6, KJ9, KJ4
K96, K94 but not K64
K
J (I'm assuming I get done by a false card)
KJ, K4 K6 K9
J964
K964

(1) picks up
96, 94, 64
964
J64, J94
K4, K6, K9
K94, K64, K96
KJ
9
J964
K964

(7) looks a winner.

(1) also picks up J96.

Thus (1) gets 14 3-2s and 3 4-1s; (7) gets 13 3-2s and 4 4-1s. A specific 3-2 is more likely than a specific 4-1, so (1) is better.

[MFA]

gnasher, on Feb 15 2009, 05:43 PM, said:

ewj, on Feb 15 2009, 07:22 PM, said:

(7) Picks up the following with RHO...

964
J64, KJ64 (when 9 falls)
J6, J4
KJ6, KJ9, KJ4
K96, K94 but not K64
K
J (I'm assuming I get done by a false card)
KJ, K4 K6 K9
J964
K964

(1) picks up
96, 94, 64
964
J64, J94
K4, K6, K9
K94, K64, K96
KJ
9
J964
K964

(7) looks a winner.

(1) also picks up J96.

Thus (1) gets 14 3-2s and 3 4-1s; (7) gets 13 3-2s and 4 4-1s. A specific 3-2 is more likely than a specific 4-1, so (1) is better.

(7) usually handles J9 as well. East won't falsecard very often.

[MFA]

I think there is an aspect more to this combination.

Plan (7) should be low towards the ace, not to cash the ace.

If west plays the 9 he has KJ9, K9, J9 or 9 if he is honest.
(1) handles 3 of these, (7) only 2. So when we see the 9, we should change to (1).

He can falsecard 9 from 96, 94 or 964 however. The equlibrium occurs when he falsecards 1/3 of the time! This is game theory. If he falsecards more often, we should choose (7), if he falsecards less often (1)!
We have to evaluate this.

This also has impact on our plan when west plays the 6 or 4. If he falsecards a lot, 96, 94 and 964 becomes less likely and (1) thus more favoured. There will be an equlibrium position here too, where (1) and (7) are equally likely to succeed, depending on west's tendency to falsecard with the 9 and east's tendency to falsecard with the J from J9!

[ewj]

Ok, fair enough.

I think Frances improved what I said ...although when I counted it just now it seems that (7) has 2 extra 4-1s...plus like MFA said, they won't always false card, so would pick up J9 on my right now and again.

[TimG]

gnasher, on Feb 15 2009, 05:43 PM, said:

ewj, on Feb 15 2009, 07:22 PM, said:

(7) Picks up the following with RHO...

964
J64, KJ64 (when 9 falls)
J6, J4
KJ6, KJ9, KJ4
K96, K94 but not K64
K
J (I'm assuming I get done by a false card)
KJ, K4 K6 K9
J964
K964

(1) picks up
96, 94, 64
964
J64, J94
K4, K6, K9
K94, K64, K96
KJ
9
J964
K964

(7) looks a winner.

(1) also picks up J96.

Thus (1) gets 14 3-2s and 3 4-1s; (7) gets 13 3-2s and 4 4-1s. A specific 3-2 is more likely than a specific 4-1, so (1) is better.

(7) gets 13 3-2s and 5 4-1s as listed, when RHO has:

KJ64
K964
J964
K
J

[gnasher]

Yes, it seems that I can't count. I agree that ewj's version of (7) is best.