[Phil]

Hold em players tend not to look at their cards until it is their turn to act.

Know anyone that does this at the bridge table?

[rogerclee]

no

[TimG]

I know this one person who talks about the previous hand constantly. He often is reminded of the current hand when it becomes him turn to call and he hasn't taken his hand out of the board, yet. Does this count?

[Hanoi5]

You know that person, too?

[hotShot]

Such a behavior would conflict with several bridge laws.

Ethical player would avoid it even it it were legal, because the behavior at the table can transport UI to partner, or it could mislead opponents.

[blackshoe]

hotShot, on Feb 8 2009, 08:54 AM, said:

Such a behavior would conflict with several bridge laws.

Ethical player would avoid it even it it were legal, because the behavior at the table can transport UI to partner, or it could mislead opponents.

That turns out not to be the case. Law 7B2 says

Quote

each player counts his cards face down to be sure he has exactly 13. After that, and before making a call, he must inspect the faces of his cards.

It does not say that he must immediately look at his cards, only that he must do so before he makes a call. That said, I infer from my limited knowledge of poker that the purpose of not looking at one's cards is to avoid "tells". It's a good idea to avoid tells in bridge, too, if you can, but I don't know anyone who does this deliberately.

If something is legal in bridge, it is by definition ethical.

I do not buy the argument that not looking at one's cards until just before one's first call conveys UI, nor that it could mislead opponents. However, it might cause the player to break normal tempo. That's a different can of worms.

Sometimes (fairly often, actually) I will close my hand after I've looked at it, and not open it again unless I need to refresh my memory. This is not illegal (nor unethical) so long as it is not a breach of Law 74B6 ("showing an obvious lack of further interest in a deal (as by folding one’s cards) [is a violation of procedure]").

[hotShot]

My reading of the OP is that the player does this each round of play.
Such a behavior might give opps a impression of disrespect, it could create the impression that you don't take the game serious, it could slow down the game, it could cause a break in tempo and it could create a bigger risk of revokes/misbids.

I'll agree that you can't give UI before you faced your cards at least once, but if you later sometimes look at your hand and sometimes obviously don't look at them, this behavior could have a (un-)intended pattern. For example that you expect to get a trick or that you expect to get no more trick.

[Phil]

While I agree that I might slow down the game by about five seconds, some of these other comments are off-base. What UI would I transmit to partner by waiting to inspect my hand that I would not transmit if I looked my cards immediately?

All I'm concerned about (given the thread's title) is giving my RHO the option of making a call that he would not otherwise make if he knew I had a strong hand. By waiting to inspect my hand this opportunity is eliminated.

Is there anything in the laws that says I can't look at my opponents?

Quote

My reading of the OP is that the player does this each round of play.
Such a behavior might give opps a impression of disrespect, it could create the impression that you don't take the game serious, it could slow down the game, it could cause a break in tempo and it could create a bigger risk of revokes/misbids.

LOL

[blackshoe]

hotShot, on Feb 8 2009, 01:48 PM, said:

My reading of the OP is that the player does this each round of play.
Such a behavior might give opps a impression of disrespect, it could create the impression that you don't take the game serious, it could slow down the game, it could cause a break in tempo and it could create a bigger risk of revokes/misbids.

I'll agree that you can't give UI before you faced your cards at least once, but if you later sometimes look at your hand and sometimes obviously don't look at them, this behavior could have a (un-)intended pattern. For example that you expect to get a trick or that you expect to get no more trick.

If he does it all the time, I think all your "woulda-coulda's" are highly unlikely, to say the least. I will grant that if the mannerism does cause a problem, the offender might be subject to a PP or a score adjustment.

If my usage (reported upthread) has generated any such unintended pattern, no one has remarked on it. I certainly haven't seen it.

[blackshoe]

Phil, on Feb 8 2009, 02:21 PM, said:

Is there anything in the laws that says I can't look at my opponents?

You can look at them, but

Quote

looking intently at any other player during the auction and play

is a violation of procedure (Law 74C5).

[jdonn]

blackshoe, on Feb 8 2009, 05:42 PM, said:

Phil, on Feb 8 2009, 02:21 PM, said:

Is there anything in the laws that says I can't look at my opponents?

You can look at them, but

Quote

looking intently at any other player during the auction and play

is a violation of procedure (Law 74C5).

I learned that rule like 10 years ago when I was a teenager. Out of the blue the old lady on my left called the director and accused me of staring at her. I was like wtf, why would I stare at an old lady? I wasn't trying to read her at all, but I guess I might have been doing it without realizing, since she was taking a year and I just wanted to get on with the hand.

[mtvesuvius]

jdonn, on Feb 8 2009, 05:50 PM, said:

blackshoe, on Feb 8 2009, 05:42 PM, said:

Phil, on Feb 8 2009, 02:21 PM, said:

Is there anything in the laws that says I can't look at my opponents?

You can look at them, but

Quote

looking intently at any other player during the auction and play

is a violation of procedure (Law 74C5).

I learned that rule like 10 years ago when I was a teenager. Out of the blue the old lady on my left called the director and accused me of staring at her. I was like wtf, why would I stare at an old lady? I wasn't trying to read her at all, but I guess I might have been doing it without realizing, since she was taking a year and I just wanted to get on with the hand.

I was playing the finals of a KO in Houston and we played a Husband and Wife pair... Every hand, the guy would take out his convention card and scribble stuff for 3 minutes, then pick up his cards, then tank for 1 minute and pass his 3 count... Same thing on defense, it took the *%$#er a minute to play his stiff once. I finally called the director and he sped up a little, however I find this behaviour obnoxious, and extremely disruptive.

btw... Josh, when I think, I stare into the distance... I was playing a pairs game with my father when I arrived in a miserable 5♦ contract and I put my cards onto the table and I tanked for 3 or 4 minutes... Staring off into (what I thought was) the distance, however my 80 year old opponent called the director on me for staring at her... Now I think with my eyes closed (and people call the director on me for snoring ) or I stare at my feet.

[Fluffy]

First time I hear about staring at opponents being forbidden.

[mycroft]

Yeah, well, it's true. And it is disruptive, and there are players who do it knowing it causes distraction. Those, I tend to drop my hand, and stare back "please stop staring at me." If they challenge me on it, I call the TD. And, when they do it again, after the discussion, I call the TD again.

Yes, I find certain behaviours in my "space" disruptive, and they make it very hard to think (the other one is kibitzing from a standing position, and I have asked several people to "please either pull up a chair and sit, or leave"). The good news is that those behaviours are acknowledged to be disruptive, and have been made illegal.

The rest of the proprieties is worth reading for everyone as well; the rest of this particular law (which has made the fact that staring at the person, even if you are not trying to divine anything about the hand, is also wrong, explicit) is important, talking about the fact that you are not allowed to attempt to get information from where cards are in a hand, where they're being pulled from, and so on. Please note that a lot still do...

[Phil]

When people stare at me, and they tend to when I have a difficult decision and am taking a lot of time, I just put my cards down and stare back.

When I meant looking at someone, I meant, "looking", not staring. Maybe a 1 second glance.

[jdonn]

I actually don't mind being stared at. It usually gives me a much better read on them than the one they are getting on me. And if it's just because I'm taking a while, then being so young and immature, I enjoy making them wait even a little longer if possible (not saying I'll keep tanking once my decision is made, just that I'm happy they have to wait for me). Kind of like how a person tailgaiting me makes me want to slow down just a bit.

[kfay]

I don't know anyone who does this as a rule at the bridge table. I also don't think it's good policy. When I really want to focus on a hand I look at my cards and think about what my actions will be over various auctions. I definitely play better when I think like this but obviously that's just personal preference. I'm sure to some people it makes no difference.

I've never really tried to look for tells in people at the bridge table anyway. The obvious ones jump out at you for sure but I'm not afraid of anyone looking at me and trying to figure out what I have based on my reactions during the auction, especially the first round of the auction.

[helene_t]

I usually don't look at my cards during the auction but do so during the play. I try to look at my cards before it's my turn to bid, though, since otherwise I would convey the UI that I my decision was so easy that I didn't have to look at my hand.

Not sure which is better. I sometimes notice other players look at their hand in a different way if they have a good hand than when they have a bad one. Also, keeping the cards folded and under the table reduces the risk of someone else accidentally looking at my cards, or slotting.

OTOH as explained by others there are some potential problems with not looking at the hand, also.

[Phil]

When my partner and I are not in the auction, the last thing I do is look at my cards. I try to focus on the opponent's hand, not mine. This doesn't mean I'm looking at my opponents, but I'm not exactly avoiding them either.

My partner might as well have a black shroud over their head. I never, ever look at them during the hand.

[blackshoe]

I think it was Al Roth who used to take his hand out of the board, look at it, and stick it in his pocket. He wouldn't look at it again, but would pull cards one at a time during the play. Or so I heard. I did not hear that this ever caused a problem, but no doubt the man had a very good memory.