[Echognome]

jdonn, on Feb 9 2009, 04:55 PM, said:

Echognome, on Feb 9 2009, 07:53 PM, said:

I don't understand rebidding 3♦ after FSF on AKxxxx.  The diamonds aren't good enough, IMO, for that.

The diamonds are good enough. It's the 1♠ bid I don't understand, opener seems definitely good enough for 2♠. A 6-4 18 count with all aces and kings, and a T9 thrown in? Wtp?

I guess it depends on whether fourth suit was forcing to game or not. If 2♣ forces to game, then why would we suggest diamonds so strongly, before we have heard of any support?

If fourth suit is forcing 1 round, then we need to forcing to game now and 3♦ carries a lot less emphasis for strain.

[benlessard]

Playing scans after minorwood

4D-----4H (1)
4S(Q♦ ?)------5C yes but no K of S.
5H K of H?---------- 5Nt Yes but no K of clubs
6C (extras ?)--------yes

or

4D ------4H (14)
4Nt (Ks ?)----5H (yes and the 2nd control in H but not in clubs)
5S (Q of S ?)--------5NT (no)
6C extras ?----------here you know that partner got either the K of clubs or thinks its possible you can avoid a club loser. Since he ask and you denied the Q of S the only remaining chance is that hes hoping that you have a doubleton H and a doubleton clubs.

im not sure i would reach 7D OTB in the 2nd case. Case 1 is more likely to happen since its the big hand that has the club control.

[y66]

I would not have found 7D. I play Minorwood but I didn't know about that 5S bid kfay used to ask for 3rd round spade control. Very nice.

[Cascade]

kenrexford, on Feb 10 2009, 10:22 AM, said:

North: Opens 1♦
South: GF 2♣ artificial response
North: 2♥ (four spades)
South: 3♦ (sets trumps)

At this point, North can predict a probable inability to gain anything from cues. So, he just bids 4♥ 1430 RKCB. South shows one (4♠). 5♣ asks for the Queen (4NT would be a signoff), and South shows it plus the heart King (5♥).

North now knows that he has no club loser and might have no problem in spades. So, he asks for the impossible spade King (5♠). South lacks this and lacks the club King, and he hates his hand, so he bids 6♦.

North lacks sufficient info to pursue the grand without bypassing 6♦. However, he does have ability to get out at 6NT. So, he makes one last stab, 5♠. This is strange, as it essentially lets Responder know that the spade ask earlier was fake and that he is instead looking for tertiary spade values. With a doubleton, Responder might get this right.

So, maybe.

I like this approach.

However I am not convinced South should hate the hand. South has two doubletons either of which could be useful. Over 5♠ I might bid 5NT saying I don't have the spade king but I do have extras (not the ♣K either). Opener will likely be able to infer the third round spade control. In fact we would use 5♠ here as a more generic - "Have you got anything else?". In context given opener has shown four spades with the ♠K south would be worth a jump to 7♦.

[CanadaGrl]

Just for the record, the "partner" wasn't upset that 7 wasn't found.. He/she was upset that with the way the bidding went, there was zippo chance of finding 7 even if it was cold, and feels was lucky even to find 6 lolol

[mike777]

jdonn, on Feb 9 2009, 07:55 PM, said:

Echognome, on Feb 9 2009, 07:53 PM, said:

I don't understand rebidding 3♦ after FSF on AKxxxx.  The diamonds aren't good enough, IMO, for that.

The diamonds are good enough. It's the 1♠ bid I don't understand, opener seems definitely good enough for 2♠. A 6-4 18 count with all aces and kings, and a T9 thrown in? Wtp?

I agree that not only is 1s rebid an issue but if you play xyz....then 2c cannot be bid.....you are stuck bidding 2d as an artificial checkback game force or 3d as natural and game force......

[Codo]

I would not like to jump shift, but when you have to, isn't it even easier to find the slam?

1♦ 1 ♥
2 ♠ 3 ♦
3♥ 3♠ (cues)
4♦ 4 ♠ (aceasking/ good hand, 1 KC)
5♣ 5♥ (k of Heart/ Queen of diamond)
5♠ 7♦ (Something else? Really good diamonds, 2 doubletons)

(After 2 Cuebids, the last suit would ask for a control, so here 4 Diamond shows Club control.)

[skjaeran]

The obvious start in a natural system is:
1♦ - 1♥
2♠ - 3♦ (GF, support)
3♥ - 3♠ (cuebids)

If you play minorwood or kickback, you'll be able to find out about the ♥K and 3rd round spade control and reach the grand. If you use 4NT as ace-asking, you won't be able to dislodge the 3rd round spade control (without risking getting too high), and can't bid the grand with control.

[kenrexford]

Cascade, on Feb 9 2009, 09:59 PM, said:

kenrexford, on Feb 10 2009, 10:22 AM, said:

North: Opens 1♦
South: GF 2♣ artificial response
North: 2♥ (four spades)
South: 3♦ (sets trumps)

At this point, North can predict a probable inability to gain anything from cues.  So, he just bids 4♥ 1430 RKCB.  South shows one (4♠).  5♣ asks for the Queen (4NT would be a signoff), and South shows it plus the heart King (5♥).

North now knows that he has no club loser and might have no problem in spades.  So, he asks for the impossible spade King (5♠).  South lacks this and lacks the club King, and he hates his hand, so he bids 6♦.

North lacks sufficient info to pursue the grand without bypassing 6♦.  However, he does have ability to get out at 6NT.  So, he makes one last stab, 5♠.  This is strange, as it essentially lets Responder know that the spade ask earlier was fake and that he is instead looking for tertiary spade values.  With a doubleton, Responder might get this right.

So, maybe.

I like this approach.

However I am not convinced South should hate the hand. South has two doubletons either of which could be useful. Over 5♠ I might bid 5NT saying I don't have the spade king but I do have extras (not the ♣K either). Opener will likely be able to infer the third round spade control. In fact we would use 5♠ here as a more generic - "Have you got anything else?". In context given opener has shown four spades with the ♠K south would be worth a jump to 7♦.

I thought about that myself, but I decided to low-ball to avoid the risk of double-dummy bdding. 5NT might be viewed as Qx, for example.

[lilboyman]

1 C 16+ artificial 2 D 5 or more Diamonds
2 H Tell me more 3 H 4 Hearts
3 S Tell me more 3 N No singleton or void
4 D Sets Trump 4 H 1st or 2nd round control
4 S 1st or 2n rnd ctl 5 S 2nd round control
7 D

[rogerclee]

TylerE, on Feb 9 2009, 09:04 AM, said:

1♣ (16+) - 2♣ (GF, 5+ ♦)
2♦ (Trump ask) - 2♠ (5, 1 of AKQ)
3♣ (Club ask) - 3♥ (3rd round)
3♠ (Spade ask) - 4♥ (1st Round)
5♥ (Heart ask) - 6♣ (2nd Round)
7♦

LOLSPREE

[mike777]

It does appear some think this hand is not worth a game force jump shift after 1h by responder. In any case I still think some of these auctions have an issue on how to "know" north does not have 3clubs or south has 3 spades.

At least in my two examples I do have such an issue after 2s jump shift but not after one spade rebid by opener and 2c 4sf.

[kfay]

jdonn, on Feb 9 2009, 07:55 PM, said:

Echognome, on Feb 9 2009, 07:53 PM, said:

I don't understand rebidding 3♦ after FSF on AKxxxx.  The diamonds aren't good enough, IMO, for that.

The diamonds are good enough. It's the 1♠ bid I don't understand, opener seems definitely good enough for 2♠. A 6-4 18 count with all aces and kings, and a T9 thrown in? Wtp?

Yeah you're right, Donn. When I was first looking I was like 'meh this is right on the boarder.' What can I say, I've been sick for a couple days.

[shevek]

jtfanclub, on Feb 9 2009, 11:01 AM, said:

Dealer: ????? Vul: ???? Scoring: Unknown

♠ KT94 ♥ A ♦ AK7652 ♣ A5 ♠ A8 ♥ K874 ♦ QJ984 ♣ Q3

North is dealer.  We found (well, I made a slight adjustment to the hands, but on the actual one we found) 6NT played by South, made the 12th trick on a friendly spade lead, and a 13th on a simple squeeze. 

Partner was not happy that we did not find the much safer and higher scoring 7♦.  Would you?

OKay I'll have a practice.

!♣ 16+ then all opener's bids are relays.

1♣ - 1♠    4+♥s, 8+ pts
1N - 2♣    & diamonds
2♦ - 2♥    longer ♦s
2♠ - 3♣    2-4-5-2
3♥ - 3N    3 kontrols
7♦