[karlson]

I can echo Olegru's comment. Inventing (now absurd) conventions was definitely my favorite part of learning the game. I think Fred is significantly underestimating this aspect, especially if the game is taught to smart young kids, who have some experience with hearts or spades.

I think if you're dealing with players who have never played trick taking games at all, then you should just start with whist or minibridge or spades before trying to explain bridge. I guess this is similar to what Fred has in mind.

[Echognome]

I think the most fun for new players is getting to sit down and actually play. Just teach them a rudimentary system and get them playing cards. Sitting there and studying a system before you actually can see why it is important is boring. That is not to say that making things up should be stifled, but rather it should come with need.

As several others, I came into bridge knowing hearts and spades, and I learned playing a Chicago game with people playing 1950s style system. I learned the basics of the system in very little time and could spend time just playing and enjoying the game before learning the finer aspects.

[JLOL]

I was realllly into hearts and spades before I played bridge (and while I was just learning I was still more serious about those games). Learning bridge from scratch is overwhelming I'm sure, but if you've played spades bridge is not nearly as foreign. I would say probably a third of the kids my age and even younger know how to play spades in USA. We played sometimes at school. There are also thousands of people playing on yahoo all the time, most of them are probably teenagers. I have said this for a while but I would love to see some way to tap into that market since it is perfect. Every time Ive taken a spades friend from yahoo to OKB or BBO they have enjoyed bridge. A few still play.

For those who don't know what spades is, it is a game where spades is always trumps and you start by bidding however many tricks you think you can take with spades as trumps (so you learn hand evaluation, the power of long trumps and shape, etc). You have a partner who does the same, then your partnership tries to make the total number of tricks that you bid. There is a huge penalty for going set. The card play is the same as bridge and is a trick taking game, the only difference is there's no dummy. I mean it's absolutely perfect.

The other thing I think is important is sponsorship. I know it can be very hard to get sponsors, and I would have no idea how to do it, but I know that its happened sometimes here, and happens more frequently in other countries. As far as I know the people working on getting sponsors are volunteers. I think this should be a salaried full time job with at least 1 person aggressively persuing it. Sponsorship could really help bridge in so many ways.

[JLOL]

As far as image goes, if you want to appeal to the true game players (of which there are a lot) the fact that bridge is the most complex and tough card game in the world needs to be actively promoted. This isn't even really disputed, even the poker players who don't play bridge but have heard about it just automatically concede this point lol. Playing the toughest card game would really appeal to a lot of gamer types.

To appeal to the average person the fact that big money can be involved in bridge (high stakes rubber bridge, the cavendish, top professionals) should be promoted. People don't know that you can make a lot of money playing bridge. Even if 99.99% are unlikely to ever do so, that's the kind of thing that gets people interested in some games and sports in the beginning. The fact that there are world championships and highly competitive tournaments with great rivalries and upsets and drama should also be promoted. Think about Bobby Fischer, why he made chess way more popular. There has been a great Italy/USA rivalry for a while, some press about that woulda been good etc.

Also pictures of any Swedish girl world champions doesn't hurt

[olegru]

fred, on Feb 6 2009, 01:59 PM, said:

By "brand new players" I mean people who either know nothing about bridge or who are just learning the (very) basics.
These people will see the introduction of any bidding system as they would see lessons in Fizzbin. There is no case for teaching them something that they are not going to understand. There is a strong case for NOT teaching them something they are not going to understand - most people don't like things that are totally confusing.

Completely agree!
People need to be taught when they feel they need lessons. Lets them make own mistakes, understand why do they need the biding system and only after it gave them bidding lessons. But strict ACBL system policy makes beginners think that bidding system is the part of the game rules. Very complicated and boring part

fred, on Feb 6 2009, 01:59 PM, said:

I doubt that you had much appreciation for most of the 6 things you listed about why you were attracted to bridge during (say) the first month of your experience as a player. It is players of this experience level I have been referring to. If you really claim that you liked inventing conventions during this time then of course I will believe you, but if so I think your experience is very far from typical.

It is really not typical for ACBL land. You probably will find it hard to believe how many different systems and conventions had been played in Moscow bridge club in beginning of 1990s. Anybody play whatever they want. Relay systems, strong pass system… 2 diamonds opening 5+5 in random suits, 2 hearts opening with week spades or strong 5+5 in minors, 2 spades opening with more than 6 spades or less then 2 spades and so on so forth.
In the environment where everybody playing something “their own” idea to create something “your own and better then everybody” is a very natural. “Let’s, partner, open 1 heart to show week hands with spades or strong hands with hearts and see what happened.” It took me several months to understand that bidding is not just separated bids, that making mess during the bidding is not the way to became a winning player and that the well developed by experts systems are a very useful tool to study and use.

fred, on Feb 6 2009, 01:59 PM, said:

It would thus be a mistake to draw any conclusions about the general population as a result of your experience.

Of cause you are right. There is no guaranty that something worked well for me and my friends will work equally well for everybody. But if current policy is not successful to ensure future of our game maybe it is a good idea to look at individuals experiences and re-think if policy better to be changed or not.

[Vilgan]

A kids show that makes bridge "cool" would be the ultimate win. It certainly worked for Go in Japan with Hikaru no Go. Here is a quick BBC blurb on that: http://www.youtube.c...h?v=NyllVL9fpe0

[hotShot]

Bridge at YouTube:
http://www.youtube.c...h?v=z0pacJNspqk
http://www.youtube.c...feature=related

Of cause there are more!

[Free]

hotShot, on Feb 7 2009, 09:22 AM, said:

Bridge at YouTube:
http://www.youtube.c...h?v=z0pacJNspqk
http://www.youtube.c...feature=related

Of cause there are more!

Booooooring! No wonder nobody is interested...

[benlessard]

Agree 100% with JLOL 2 posts. Exposure to cards, can really lead to the king of
cards games.

[jmc]

I have posted previously about how the ACBL could use the game of Spades to promote bridge. I even had some correspondence with the ACBL CEO Jay Baum about it at one point.

The ACBL needs players.

Spades needs a rating and organizational body.

Spades needs clubs and places to play.

Spades is a simple introduction to bridge ideas like, trump, tricks, etc.

Doesn't this seem like a natural fit? Add a spades game once a week at clubs and advertise it. Add a game or two to regionals and nationals. The promotion of spades would lead to thousands of bridge converts.

jmc

Below is the text of my main email to Jay Baum ACBL CEO:

Let me begin by talking about a card game called spades.
Spades is a trump based card game similar to bridge. The game is
played by 4 players who are seated and partnered as in bridge but
spades is always trump. There is no dummy and players can also bid
"nils" for taking no tricks. This game is thriving both on the
internet and perhaps more importantly among high school and college
students around the country. Spades has only two major tournaments a
year and has thus far failed at creating a national sanctioning body.
In many ways spades players are in a similar position to whist /
bridge players pre ACBL. They have no clubs. They play in coffee
shops and student unions.

Why am I prattering on about spades players you might be wondering. I
think that the acbl should consider stepping in and becoming involved
in spades. Many bridge players play in spades tournaments and the
game would be simple to learn. More importantly, the opportunity to
get spades players (did I mention many of them are young?) into our
clubs, perhaps even playing games for spade "points", would be a
chance to recruit them into OUR great game, Bridge. I am convinced
the acbl would benefit mightily. My father and sister have both
recently become interested in playing bridge because of how much they
have enjoyed playing spades.

Imagine if acbl clubs had a spades game on Saturday afternoon,
immediately followed by a bridge intro and minibridge game. Some
players would surely stay. They could then watch as the Saturday
Bridge game players trickled into the club. Maybe they would see the
intensity of play. Some might stay and kibitz. Imagine how easy our
members could invite family members who didn't know bridge to play
spades. The game is much easier to learn, but provides great training
for bridge in terms of play of the hand. It has to be easier to
recruit players for bridge among those who play cards than those who
don't.

The ACBL could test my ideas by running a pilot program. Persuade a
bridge club owner or two to publicize and run a spades game and offer
some bridge indoctrination immediately before and after. When the
players arrive explain the clubs main purpose is for bridge and
introduce the role of the acbl. ACBL score could easily prepare swiss
pairings or some other type of playing bracket. Post sheets just like
in real bridge. Following the game invite whoever is interested to
play a few hands of minibridge. Announce any upcoming bridge lessons
and emphasize how many bridge games the club has every week. If this
is at all interesting to you, I have spoken to club owners willing to
give it a try.

Even if none of these ideas about acbl and bridge are interesting to
you, at a minimum I think you should consider having the acbl sponsor
a booth or some kind of presence at the three large spades conferences
every year. It makes sense to market to our fellow card players. Two
conferences are held by The Spades Connection and information can be
found at http://www.thespades...on.com/news.php. The largest
tournament is the World Series of Spades and information can be found
at http://www.grandprixtournaments.com/ Currently there are 4000
spades players online at the Microsoft Gaming Zone. There are only
1000 bridge players.

[JoAnneM]

" Currently there are 4000 spades players online at the Microsoft Gaming Zone. There are only 1000 bridge players."

I am surprised there are that many. Why would you play through msn when you can play directly at bbo with much better graphics. I think most figured that out rather quickly.

As a former, and very happy, member of the MSN Bridge Club, which was a "fee site" (not the free zone), I welcomed the new bridge at MSN with a huge yawn.

[Hanoi5]

Quote

" Currently there are 4000 spades players online at the Microsoft Gaming Zone. There are only 1000 bridge players."

I am surprised there are that many. Why would you play through msn when you can play directly at bbo with much better graphics. I think most figured that out rather quickly.

As a former, and very happy, member of the MSN Bridge Club, which was a "fee site" (not the free zone), I welcomed the new bridge at MSN with a huge yawn.

I don't understand this answer to the previous post, did you read what he had to say about marketing Bridge to Spades players? If you are or were in a position at the ACBL (and I think you are from your previous post here) you should be 'lobbying' for this idea to go through.

I agree with some people in this and the rec.games.bridge post and I also disagree on a lot of stuff. I think my conclusions from what I have read so far are:

1. The Bridge playing population is diminishing due to several factors. I'm not sure at what rate but it certainly is worrying, 'cause it could lead to an eventual disappearance of the game altogether. Therefore something must be done by EVERY person interested in the game. It doesn't matter if you're ACBL or not, why don't YOU advertise bridge in a Spades game? Why don't YOU advertise bridge to your students? Why don't YOU teach bridge to your friends and relatives?

2. An important marketing strategy that should be use is in fact a very easy one: Publicity. Publicize bridge as much as you can, using any means available. Good publicity, bad publicity, it doesn't really matter whether the news talk about a young life master who just received his/her title or a team who denies having voted for the current president in their country. Drop pamphlets at universities/colleges/highschools, push sport channels/newspapers to cover stories (or plays) about/of bridge, advertise everywhere you can about classes and clubs and tournaments, etc. I was just watching this news bit about how the economic recession is leading the American families to play more board games; birdge is not a board game but, why couldn't it be mentioned? Just let people know that bridge exists and that people play it and have fun or drama with/in it.

3. Find sponsors. Some people should take care of this and even in the present economic situation find people/institutions willing to donate money for bridge. What about teaching in companies that would then compete amongst themselves? Can you imagine in the news "AMD bridge team beats Intel", or "Donald Trump's bridge team beats Bill Gates'". And guess how these teams will be trained? By bridge teachers and/or coaches who'd find a more interesting job than teaching old ladies in a country club (and leaving that job to someone else, of course).

4. Create a Universal Beginner's Bridge System. Let's gather teachers and theorists from all over the world and have them devise (or choose?) a system to be used in all beginners classes everywhere in the world. May the WBF impose all NBO's this system as the starting system for all new students. Let each NBO design and adapt it's present teaching program to teach this system adding some defenses to whatever is common at club levels. And then, let everyone play whatever system they choose according to the tournament level but let all beginners be able to play together, no matter where they're from. If, though I don't think it's possible, systems seem to begin to 'dissappear', create events where your inventiveness (or memory capacity for learning a new system) is rewarded, put beginners in the 'next level' by teaching them a new system (2/1 or Polish club to give examples, depending on the club).

5. Charge more money to those who can pay it, and less to those who can't. Let's face it, a teenager would rather spend his/her money in something else than in a bridge tournament or NBO fee. Lower the charges according to age! Or according to several factors, whichever they be.

I hope I have not forgotten any of my ideas, so these are my two cents.

[bill1157]

Fred is (as usual) dead on on his points. I do think though that bidding is what separates bridge from spades etc.
I am working with my wife and another couple on learning bridge. We have been bidding (natural altogether) and they can see how it works. After several sessions i made the remark that now the next step is to get to game when it is appropriate, i.e. develop bidding judgement. Maybe take-out X's next and later we will get into slam bidding.
Also, again i will say: simplify the scoring also: you dont need vulnerability to make the game enjoyable and rewarding.(and popular)
Bill