[dchui]

Dear bridge friends,

Suppose the auction 1h-1s-2d-3c (4sf) - ? So you may have the following bids:

If you have 3 card in s: bid 3s
If you have 6-4 suits: bid 3h (or 4h if extra/longer?)
If you have 5-5 suits: bid 3d
If you have club stopper: bid 3nt

So what will you bid if you have nothing more to say (e.g. holding 1543/2542 without club stopper)? what will be the better arrangement for future game/slam investigation?

Thanks a lot.
Daniel

[Hanoi5]

I think there's not a catch-all. At least none I know. Sometimes you can 'raise' the fourth suit (4441/5440), sometimes you just bid the lowest of your two suits. You could even raise partner's first suit with two doubleton honors (yuck!) or simply repeat your best suit even though it's not a card longer than previously announced.

Returning to the first suit semms to be more convenient, though. Partner rarely 'believes' the suit to be longer and if it is we can just re-bid again afterwards.

[Codo]

To me the own first suit is the catch all bid.

This is easy when you are influenced from SEF. There the(non-jump) return to your first suit does not very often promise extra length.

[mtvesuvius]

I think I would rebid my 1st suit. It's not very often that I am 1642/2641... This just serves as a make an inteligent decision partner kind of bid. It's alot simpler when 4SF is bid on the 2 level .

[TimG]

dchui, on Jan 20 2009, 07:06 AM, said:

Suppose the auction 1♥-1♠-2♦-3♣ (4sf) - ?

Last time this topic came up, the general consensus was that 3♦ was the least bad lie. 3♦ is the cheapest bid, so allows the most space; and lies about minor suit length rather than major suit length, so it a bit less likely to result in trouble.

What your catchall bid after 4SF ought to be varies from sequence to sequence, the one you have given is notoriously awkward.

[andy_h]

1H-1S-2D-3C is the most annoying FSF auction for the obvious reason. My belief is that I prefer to rebid my diamonds rather than my hearts so that way we can still get to 6-2 fits or even that partner will be able to agree hearts over my 3D. In essence, 3D is like a step bid not really wanting to take up lots of room as 3C has already done that and you want to save as much space as possible for the major fits. I mean, if you use 3H as the "catch all" is it that important to show a "5th diamond" so you can get to a 5-3 diamond fit rather than giving partner the luxury of bidding 3H over the 3D catchall?
3S (partner's suit) can be bid on Hx etc.

[whereagles]

As codo.

[MFA]

The cheaper of my suits, here ♦.

[gnasher]

3♠ with a 2542 shape. With a 3541 minimum I would have raised 1♠ to 2♠, so 3♠ shows either a 3541 with extra values or a 2542 minimum. Partner will assume 2542 unless I tell him otherwise (which I may not be able to do, of course).

With a 1543 and no diamond stop, I'd probably bid 3NT.

[Ant590]

I play my first suit, unless I have bid a major and a minor, in which case the minor is the catch-all bid. So here 3♦. This is not something I know to be right, it's just what I agreed to play with one partner.

[MFA]

gnasher, on Jan 20 2009, 10:29 AM, said:

3♠ with a 2542 shape.

I agree that 2542 could bid 3♠, but I would strongly prefer Hx for that, which is often crucial to have for the 5-2 fit.

Quote

With a 3541 minimum I would have raised 1♠ to 2♠, so 3♠ shows either a 3541 with extra values or a 2542 minimum.  Partner will assume 2542 unless I tell him otherwise (which I may not be able to do, of course).

I'm so used to my strong club system that I have never worked this through in a serious partnership.

But, while common, this seems intolerable to me. We are grilled with "the extras hand" if partner raises 3♠ to 4, and this is probably his most likely action.

Shouldn't 3541 with some extras bid 4♠? It makes the bidding somewhat quantitative if responder was planning to play in ♦ or ♥, but at least we get the strength right.
Or prehaps we could reserve 4♣ for that hand type.

[jdonn]

If I'm not playing any of the methods to get around this auction, I strongly prefer 3♦ to be the 'catchall'. It's cheaper which lets partner agree hearts on the 3 level (that is HUGE), and it's a minor instead of a major. Think about it, if you bid 3♦ partner can agree hearts, spades, and diamonds all below game level. If you bid anything else partner can not agree something below game level, so he has real problems if slam invitational with that particular fit.

[dchui]

Is there any other good method to get arround this auction? Any alternative approach for the response of 4SF in this case? Thanks in advance.

[jdonn]

dchui, on Jan 20 2009, 07:25 PM, said:

Is there any other good method to get arround this auction?  Any alternative approach for the response of 4SF in this case?  Thanks in advance.

Here are some possibilities. Of course you may not consider them worth it.

1.
1♥ - 2♠: About 6+ spades, 6-9 (Same hand that would have bid 1♠ then 2♠).
1♥ - 1♠ - XXX - 2♠: Artificial game force. Over that I think it's a good idea to play natural rebids, except playing 3♣ shows a spade preference and 3♠ shows 1543 with no club stopper. Otherwise you are bidding 3♠ too often and wasting room.

2. (This I have never played so someone else can give you a more playable version)
1♥ - 1♠ - 2♦
3♣: A relay which contains invitational diamond hands and other game forcing hands. Opener should bid 3♦ on any minimum.
3♦: Natural, game forcing.

3.
Respond a 2/1 in a minor whenever possible if you have heart support to avoid this auction. For example AJxxx KQx xx AQx can respond 2♣ instead of 1♠. Of course if you were going to do this you would want to discuss the implications (there are a ton) and disclose as required.

[gwnn]

jdonn, on Jan 21 2009, 03:07 AM, said:

1♥ - 1♠ - XXX - 2♠: Artificial game force. Over that I think it's a good idea to play natural rebids, except playing

what is 1♥-1♠ 2♣-2♦?

[jdonn]

gwnn, on Jan 20 2009, 08:53 PM, said:

jdonn, on Jan 21 2009, 03:07 AM, said:

1♥ - 1♠ - XXX - 2♠: Artificial game force. Over that I think it's a good idea to play natural rebids, except playing

what is 1♥-1♠ 2♣-2♦?

Weak 5-5 is what I played. 1♥ 1♠ 1NT 3m and 1♥ 1♠ 2♦ 3♣ were game forcing 5-5. I am actually adapting, this was part of when I play 1NT = 5+!s and 1♠ = 0-4!s like a forcing notrump.

[orlam]

jdonn, on Jan 20 2009, 12:42 PM, said:

If I'm not playing any of the methods to get around this auction, I strongly prefer 3♦ to be the 'catchall'. It's cheaper which lets partner agree hearts on the 3 level (that is HUGE), and it's a minor instead of a major. Think about it, if you bid 3♦ partner can agree hearts, spades, and diamonds all below game level. If you bid anything else partner can not agree something below game level, so he has real problems if slam invitational with that particular fit.

So if 3♦ is catch-all, and 3♥ sets trumps, you basically give up on COG auctions here?

[jdonn]

orlam, on Jan 21 2009, 12:58 AM, said:

jdonn, on Jan 20 2009, 12:42 PM, said:

If I'm not playing any of the methods to get around this auction, I strongly prefer 3♦ to be the 'catchall'. It's cheaper which lets partner agree hearts on the 3 level (that is HUGE), and it's a minor instead of a major. Think about it, if you bid 3♦ partner can agree hearts, spades, and diamonds all below game level. If you bid anything else partner can not agree something below game level, so he has real problems if slam invitational with that particular fit.

So if 3♦ is catch-all, and 3♥ sets trumps, you basically give up on COG auctions here?

Sorry I don't know what you mean. Are you saying that if responder is something like 5233 with no club stopper he won't have any bid since he won't know for sure of any fit? I like 4♣ (rebidding the fourth suit) to show that but it may not be standard and it's certainly very cramped on this particular auction. Anyway I don't see how it would be any different no matter what the 'catch all' bid is, since if opener makes that bid then no matter what it is responder can't be sure of a fit.

[orlam]

jdonn, on Jan 21 2009, 02:03 AM, said:

orlam, on Jan 21 2009, 12:58 AM, said:

jdonn, on Jan 20 2009, 12:42 PM, said:

If I'm not playing any of the methods to get around this auction, I strongly prefer 3♦ to be the 'catchall'. It's cheaper which lets partner agree hearts on the 3 level (that is HUGE), and it's a minor instead of a major. Think about it, if you bid 3♦ partner can agree hearts, spades, and diamonds all below game level. If you bid anything else partner can not agree something below game level, so he has real problems if slam invitational with that particular fit.

So if 3♦ is catch-all, and 3♥ sets trumps, you basically give up on COG auctions here?

Sorry I don't know what you mean. Are you saying that if responder is something like 5233 with no club stopper he won't have any bid since he won't know for sure of any fit? I like 4♣ (rebidding the fourth suit) to show that but it may not be standard and it's certainly very cramped on this particular auction. Anyway I don't see how it would be any different no matter what the 'catch all' bid is, since if opener makes that bid then no matter what it is responder can't be sure of a fit.

If 3♥ over 3♦ can be a preference with Hx, you have some wiggle room for COG. If 3♦ is 5-5 and 3♠ is catch-all, then the latter is typically 2542 with no club stopper and responder can pick the strain (with 3541 and extras opener won't pass 3N). Responder will know more often what to do with a diamond fit that is considering to play 3N, etc.
I don't know what you need more often on this auction, COG or slam tries.

[jdonn]

If 4♣ is choice of games, how is it not better to have both that AND suit agreement available? Plus the 3♠ bid can also have to be 1543 with no club stopper the way you are doing it, so responder can't be so sure anyway.