[cnszsun]

Scoring: IMP

2♠-3♥-4♠-??

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[dicklont]

5♥
Maybe slam is on but we can't find out.
I could try 4NT (minors) and pull partners respons (probably 5♣) to 5♥.
He should take this as an invite, but I don't think I want to invite for slam.

[whereagles]

Similar to another thread. There's a case for driving to slam, though a more prudent 5♥ rates to be better. The risk is real to lose a heart and a spade.

[RichMor]

whereagles, on Jan 14 2009, 08:41 AM, said:

Similar to another thread. There's a case for driving to slam, though a more prudent 5♥ rates to be better. The risk is real to lose a heart and a spade.

Right.

And, like the other thread, maybe it is possible to use 4NT as a strong 5♥ bid instead of 'for the minors'.

[mcphee]

Well you can mark me down as a RKC 4NT bidder, I will take a shot if I hear the right things. 3H vul o/c and I have this moose I am highly excited. Dble for me in this sort of auction is card showing and a desire to compete, it is not possible I have some strump stack. I am willing to risk playing at the 5 level although some days 5 might go down I do not think so.

[Fluffy]

only 4 keycards missing assuming LHO doesn't hold ♦Q, since we can be cold for grand slam bidding 4NT looks in order.

[mtvesuvius]

4NT, then correcting 5♣ to 5♥ as a slam invite. I don't want to be in slam opposite Jx AQxxxx Qx ATx or something of the like.

[Apollo81]

Huh? I'll bid 5♥ and hope partner makes it.

[jdonn]

5♥, wtp? Again I would not make a slam try even if I could.

[JLOL]

jdonn, on Jan 14 2009, 01:42 PM, said:

5♥, wtp? Again I would not make a slam try even if I could.

LOL

I agreed with you on the other thread but I think this is totally ridiculous.

[jdonn]

JLOL, on Jan 14 2009, 02:23 PM, said:

jdonn, on Jan 14 2009, 01:42 PM, said:

5♥, wtp? Again I would not make a slam try even if I could.

LOL

I agreed with you on the other thread but I think this is totally ridiculous.

In hindsight, I have to agree with you and disagree with myself. It is worth a slam try. My first LOL from you seems to have been earned!

However as I have said before, I don't like using 4NT then pulling to 5♥ as a slam try on this auction anyway, since there are several auctions that leave my intentions very unclear to partner.

4NT p 5♦ p 5♥ he has no idea so I get to the 5 level for no reason.
4NT p 5♣ 5♠ now what do I do?

I guess I would define it the same way as normal, but only use it on a hand where I'm willing to guess to bid 6♥ on either of those auctions if it comes to that.

[JLOL]

jdonn, on Jan 14 2009, 02:30 PM, said:

4NT p 5♦ p 5♥ he has no idea so I get to the 5 level for no reason.

LOL

Why would he be confused if you bid 5H over 5D? This is not an auction where you could have clubs and hearts, he already overcalled hearts.

You're right about the risk that they bid 5S, partner has no idea what you have so you have to guess what to do. The good news is that they usually don't bid 5S (you only have to get by righty as LHO has already preempted, and often even if righty has a hand that will save over 5H they will pass 5m because you are likely to play it there), and when they do you are not THAT much worse off than if you had raised directly. If you double them then you are only losing if partner had a hand that would bid 6H over a direct 5H bid which is almost impossible for a hand that overcalled 3H. If you bid 6H you haven't lost anything since partner is never bidding over 2S 3H 4S 5H p p 5S X. This is only untrue if you would view 5H then passing 5S as forcing which seems silly. So overall you are pretty much just going to have to guess when the opps bid 5S most of the time anyways no matter what you do.

One more thing that is often overlooked in this auction though is the likelihood of inducing a save, especially when you're red/white. This is a spot where the likelihood that you can exploit the opponents goes UP as their skill level goes up. It helps to know your opponents, but in general better opponents will save over the auction 2S 3H 4S 6H p p (especially if bid in normal tempo) very often, because most people don't bid 6H in this auction as a semibluff nearly as often as they should. They will always be counting on taking zero spade tricks, and they presumably think it will be a cheap save since they were willing to bid 4S the first time. This is a better bluff when you have good trumps and less outside values though; with J9xx of trumps the chance that RHO has a trump trick against 6H increases and thus the chance that he will save decreases.

[jdonn]

JLOL, on Jan 14 2009, 07:40 PM, said:

jdonn, on Jan 14 2009, 02:30 PM, said:

4NT p 5♦ p 5♥ he has no idea so I get to the 5 level for no reason.

LOL

Why would he be confused if you bid 5H over 5D? This is not an auction where you could have clubs and hearts, he already overcalled hearts.

LOL!

I was not aware that once partner shows a suit, I automatically know if I belong in that suit or a different suit.

[JLOL]

jdonn, on Jan 14 2009, 07:45 PM, said:

JLOL, on Jan 14 2009, 07:40 PM, said:

jdonn, on Jan 14 2009, 02:30 PM, said:

4NT p 5♦ p 5♥ he has no idea so I get to the 5 level for no reason.

LOL

Why would he be confused if you bid 5H over 5D? This is not an auction where you could have clubs and hearts, he already overcalled hearts.

LOL!

I was not aware that once partner shows a suit, I automatically know if I belong in that suit or a different suit.

I know you prefer to make posts with silly sarcastic comments rather than actually think through your position, but obviously the point is if you have clubs with a heart fit and you are bidding 4N you are not increasing your chances of getting to the right fit by much, if at all. When you have clubs and hearts partner is going to bid 5D over 4N and overwhelming amount of the time anyways. This is not an auction where if partner prefers diamonds to clubs and clubs to hearts he's going to bid clubs, because you are far more likely to have the minors (there aren't many hands where you are bidding 4N with a minor+hearts). If partner is say, 2542, he is going to bid 5D and you still miss clubs. Also, even if partner does bid clubs you may belong in hearts, for instance if partner is 3622 he is going to bid 5C and you are going to miss hearts.

And aren't you the one who was so concerned about the opps bidding 5S in the first place? If you have no known suit at all for your 4N bid even with non slam try hands your partner is going to have a hell of a time figuring out what to do when the opps bid 5S. Yes he is in a much tougher position if your range of hands is C+H, D+H, or C+D as opposed to C+D or slam try with hearts, because in the latter case when he keeps bidding assuming you have C+D he will have a good offensive hand that makes slam playable when you have the slam try variety, whereas in the former case he just has no idea what to do.

I think it's close whether you should include C+H in your 4N hands is a winner at all, and when you take into account the fact that you are giving up the ability to make a slam try in hearts in order to play it it is a clear loser.

[jdonn]

No need for analysis, if it gets to the point where JLOL mocks someone's posting style then they are clearly very wrong.