[oldman5757]

Scoring: IMP

1NT (2♣*) 2♥** (pass)
*=one suited hand
**=transfer

---

S now bids 2♠. Surprisingly or not, there is no further bidding by E-W. After this start, what's the best way to reach the good slam in ♦, instead of the not so good one in ♠?

[kenrexford]

After 2♠, Responder bids 3♦. It should be easy after that.

[kfay]

kenrexford, on Jan 14 2009, 03:27 PM, said:

After 2♠, Responder bids 3♦. It should be easy after that.

This is a joke, right? I'd love to see your proposal, Ken.

3♦-4♦; 4♥-4♠; .... you're certainly not advocating KC at this point? obv you must play turbo or something (you are Ken Rexford afterall) because after 5♣- it seems like a guess to me.

Anyway I don't even see why most people would choose to bid 4♦ at this point when my spades are $$$$$$$$$$. Has responder shown 5-5 or something?

I honestly can't see a great way to this slam unless opener takes a view and then a leap.

[Fluffy]

South is gonna rebid 3♠, first show your major support then maybe think about slam. I doubt that slam can be reached. with a fair amount of confidence.

[jdonn]

Fluffy, on Jan 14 2009, 05:52 PM, said:

South is gonna rebid 3♠, first show your major support then maybe think about slam. I doubt that slam can be reached. with a fair amount of confidence.

I don't see why not. Responder can bid 4♥ next which as I play shows shortness. I would simply figure him for a club control at that point and make sure I force to slam as opener. Maybe I would bid 6♦ immediately, which actually seems to give a pretty good picture as well as offer a potentially better trump suit.

[mikeh]

Opener for sure should raise diamonds.. responder has shown a gf 2-suiter, and is unlimited, so with such surprisingly good cards in both of responder's suits, opener is pleased to co-operate. This has become a great 1N, not a minimum...

After 4♦, it would be useful to have the josh agreement that 4♥ shows shortness, but I wonder how Josh would bid QJxxx Axx KJxxx void?

While I generally do not like bidding shortness controls as my 1st cue, this North hand is too good not to take a call... Kx Axx Axxx KJxx is a control rich but not very good minimum and slam has decent play. 5♦ can hardly be in real jeopardy on any hand where 4♠ is good.

So I bid 4♥ then 5♣, and now opener can't get out below slam... he will surely either cue 5♠ or jump to 6♦.. I would bid 5♠ since partner might be on QJxxx AKx KJxxx void for all I can tell, and I'd sure like to be in 7♦ now.

[jdonn]

mikeh, on Jan 14 2009, 07:01 PM, said:

After 4♦, it would be useful to have the josh agreement that 4♥ shows shortness, but I wonder how Josh would bid QJxxx Axx KJxxx void?

5♣. And it would be more accurate to call it the Kokish agreement, as far as I know it was his idea.

[orlam]

mikeh, on Jan 14 2009, 07:01 PM, said:

Opener for sure should raise diamonds.. responder has shown a gf 2-suiter, and is unlimited, so with such surprisingly good cards in both of responder's suits, opener is pleased to co-operate. This has become a great 1N, not a minimum...

But responder could have a minimal GF hand where he always wants to play in 4♠ opposite a spade fit? I play that bidding 4♦ denies a spade fit.
To put it differently, there is always space to tell about your diamond fit below all your possible games after bidding 3♠. But there usually isn't space to tell about your spade fit after bidding 4♦.
(Using transfer extensions where completing the transfer with 3♦ shows the fit, jumping to the 4-level should show a double fit like this hand, IMO.)

[MFA]

For me a raise to 4♦ shows a double fit with 3 spades on the side. With a diamond raise and double spade opener bids 4♣ or 4♥ dependent on his hand.

[kenrexford]

Can't this be wildly simple? I mean, suppose Opener is afraid to bid 4♦ because he thinks that this buries the spade fit. So, he bids 3♠. Responder can now show his shortness in hearts however the partnership does this (personally, lowstiff, highstiff, lowvoid, highvoid, no interest means 4♥ is the call, a void). Opener now could be practical and leap to 6♦.

[jdonn]

kenrexford, on Jan 15 2009, 09:09 AM, said:

Can't this be wildly simple? I mean, suppose Opener is afraid to bid 4♦ because he thinks that this buries the spade fit. So, he bids 3♠. Responder can now show his shortness in hearts however the partnership does this (personally, lowstiff, highstiff, lowvoid, highvoid, no interest means 4♥ is the call, a void). Opener now could be practical and leap to 6♦.

Ken stop ripping off my posts!

[Phil]

jdonn, on Jan 14 2009, 05:54 PM, said:

Fluffy, on Jan 14 2009, 05:52 PM, said:

South is gonna rebid 3♠, first show your major support then maybe think about slam. I doubt that slam can be reached. with a fair amount of confidence.

I don't see why not. Responder can bid 4♥ next which as I play shows shortness. I would simply figure him for a club control at that point and make sure I force to slam as opener. Maybe I would bid 6♦ immediately, which actually seems to give a pretty good picture as well as offer a potentially better trump suit.

So North holds QJxxx x KJxxx Ax. Are you sure you want to force to slam?

What about QJxxx A KJxxx xx?

[kenrexford]

Phil, on Jan 15 2009, 12:14 PM, said:

jdonn, on Jan 14 2009, 05:54 PM, said:

Fluffy, on Jan 14 2009, 05:52 PM, said:

South is gonna rebid 3♠, first show your major support then maybe think about slam. I doubt that slam can be reached. with a fair amount of confidence.

I don't see why not. Responder can bid 4♥ next which as I play shows shortness. I would simply figure him for a club control at that point and make sure I force to slam as opener. Maybe I would bid 6♦ immediately, which actually seems to give a pretty good picture as well as offer a potentially better trump suit.

So North holds QJxxx x KJxxx Ax. Are you sure you want to force to slam?

What about QJxxx A KJxxx xx?

With these hands, Responder has two options.

First, most obviously, he could decline to "force slam" by simply signing off at 4♠. That solves that problem.

Or, if he thinks that these are worth a slam try, then, rather than showing the void in hearts (4♥), which he does not have, he uses steps (my way) to show a stiff heart, bidding 4♣. Opener can then, in that sequence, either cue a diamond card or deny a diamond card with a 4♥ LTTC bid. Responder, after a 4♥ LTTC bid, would decline (4♠). Responder, after a diamond cue, could opt to either suggest very mild slam interest (4♠) or to show moderate but inconclusive slam interest, with his own 4♥ LTTC bid.

If 4♥ is the shortness bid, then you have a great point. That's why I like the step rebids. (BTW -- with mild slam interest, I'd treat the void as a stiff.)

[orlam]

Phil, on Jan 15 2009, 12:14 PM, said:

jdonn, on Jan 14 2009, 05:54 PM, said:

Fluffy, on Jan 14 2009, 05:52 PM, said:

South is gonna rebid 3♠, first show your major support then maybe think about slam. I doubt that slam can be reached. with a fair amount of confidence.

I don't see why not. Responder can bid 4♥ next which as I play shows shortness. I would simply figure him for a club control at that point and make sure I force to slam as opener. Maybe I would bid 6♦ immediately, which actually seems to give a pretty good picture as well as offer a potentially better trump suit.

So North holds QJxxx x KJxxx Ax. Are you sure you want to force to slam?

What about QJxxx A KJxxx xx?

I learned that you try for slam when a perfect minimum for partner would make slam good. The hands you are showing seem to require a perfect maximum for partner. Why are you trying for slam?

[jdonn]

Phil, on Jan 15 2009, 12:14 PM, said:

jdonn, on Jan 14 2009, 05:54 PM, said:

Fluffy, on Jan 14 2009, 05:52 PM, said:

South is gonna rebid 3♠, first show your major support then maybe think about slam. I doubt that slam can be reached. with a fair amount of confidence.

I don't see why not. Responder can bid 4♥ next which as I play shows shortness. I would simply figure him for a club control at that point and make sure I force to slam as opener. Maybe I would bid 6♦ immediately, which actually seems to give a pretty good picture as well as offer a potentially better trump suit.

So North holds QJxxx x KJxxx Ax. Are you sure you want to force to slam?

What about QJxxx A KJxxx xx?

If partner makes a slam try without a slam try then I refuse to take the blame for what ensues. Suffice to say when partner makes a slam try off AKT and AQ of his suits and shows shortness in another suit and doesn't have the queen of the fourth suit, I think the odds he has the ace or king of that fourth suit are quickly approaching overwhelming!

[Phil]

jdonn, on Jan 15 2009, 12:28 PM, said:

Phil, on Jan 15 2009, 12:14 PM, said:

jdonn, on Jan 14 2009, 05:54 PM, said:

Fluffy, on Jan 14 2009, 05:52 PM, said:

South is gonna rebid 3♠, first show your major support then maybe think about slam. I doubt that slam can be reached. with a fair amount of confidence.

I don't see why not. Responder can bid 4♥ next which as I play shows shortness. I would simply figure him for a club control at that point and make sure I force to slam as opener. Maybe I would bid 6♦ immediately, which actually seems to give a pretty good picture as well as offer a potentially better trump suit.

So North holds QJxxx x KJxxx Ax. Are you sure you want to force to slam?

What about QJxxx A KJxxx xx?

If partner makes a slam try without a slam try then I refuse to take the blame for what ensues. Suffice to say when partner makes a slam try off AKT and AQ of his suits and shows shortness in another suit and doesn't have the queen of the fourth suit, I think the odds he has the ace or king of that fourth suit are quickly approaching overwhelming!

Josh, I'm not disagreeing with you at all, but it helps to define how strong of a slam try 4♥ is. Certainly slam is conceivable opposite some hands opener can hold. Personally, since 4♥ puts us just below game, I think the slam try should be, go with an imperfect max, or a great minimum. It is not: just bid 4♠ if you hate your hand.

Transfer advances REALLY help here.

[jdonn]

Phil, on Jan 15 2009, 12:38 PM, said:

Josh, I'm not disagreeing with you at all, but it helps to define how strong of a slam try 4♥ is. Certainly slam is conceivable opposite some hands opener can hold. Personally, since 4♥ puts us just below game, I think the slam try should be, go with an imperfect max, or a great minimum. It is not: just bid 4♠ if you hate your hand.

I hate to answer this way, but regarding both the slam try of 4♥ and the decision of opener to move on, my only definition is I knows it if I sees it.

[BobElliott]

Why can't opener bid 3H to say "I like both of your suits of just diamonds"...
3S asks : 3NT = I LIKE D OTHER = "I LIKE BOTH"

If you just like spades... bid 3S.

If you don't like either...bid 3NT.

[jdonn]

BobElliott, on Jan 15 2009, 01:16 PM, said:

Why can't opener bid 3H to say "I like both of your suits of just diamonds"...
3S asks : 3NT = I LIKE D OTHER = "I LIKE BOTH"

If you just like spades... bid 3S.

If you don't like either...bid 3NT.

What if you have hearts!

[Apollo81]

I think it is very obvious to bid slam. Opener's hand is money after the 3♦ bid. If he gets even a whiff of slam from responder he should fully cooperate.