[blackshoe]

Fluffy, on Jan 9 2009, 01:48 PM, said:

Opening 2♣ with this hand is borderline for a penalty, if psyche 2♣ opening bids are forbidden.

Well, the ACBL is one such place, and I would be very surprised to see this ruled a psych.

I would open 2♣. I would expect the auction to go 2♣-2♦-2♥-3♣*-3♠-?-4♠ after which partner will either pass or bid 5♥.

*Second negative.

[bid_em_up]

blackshoe, on Jan 9 2009, 01:02 PM, said:

I would open 2♣. I would expect the auction to go 2♣-2♦-2♥-3♣*-3♠-?-4♠ after which partner will either pass or bid 5♥.

*Second negative.

Why would you expect this? With this many hcp missing, it is quite likely that responder is going to have some sort of positive response.

This is the "main" reason (to me) for not opening it 2♣. When you do and partner has something like xx x KQxx Axxxxx, its going to be next to impossible for him to evaluate his hand in any appropriate manner, he will simply be off to the races because you opened 2C.

[mikeh]

it was predictable that whereagles would vote for 2♣ on the first hand. It is equally predictable that few others would.. and certainly not me.

I would expect 1♥ to be as close to unanimous as one would ever get if this were posed to a panel of real life experts.

I suppose it is possible to construct a layout on which 1♥ gets passed out and we have a game or slam somewhere. However:

1. That is going to be extraordinarily rare, and

2. Using that as the primary criterion is beyond silly (on this hand... I agree that there will be cases in which it is an important factor)

More to the point... on those hands (99.99% or more) in which 1♥ is not passed out, opening 1♥ and then bidding and rebidding spades will lead to a much more informed partner.

An informed partner is a happy partner.

And even more to the point... if we open 2♣, many bad things could happen. The opps could and often will preempt us... and we may lack the room to show both suits... and partner may also (in effect) preempt us.. imagine he bids 3minor, and now we bid 3♥... the road forward gets murky.. it's important to understand that a partner possessed of a A and a King should at least be thinking of slam opposite a 2♣ opener.. even without a fit.

As for the fear of using 1♥ on 11 counts with 5332 and this kind of playing strength monster... if it bothers you that much, switch to a big club method.... otherwise try to learn to play the method the way so many world champions and other leading experts have.. it works for them

[blackshoe]

Okay, my bad. 1♥ is the better opening. But only because there are 25 points out there somewhere, and I have no idea where.

[kfay]

whereagles, on Jan 9 2009, 06:28 AM, said:

guys, if you don't open 2♣ on this one, you might as well play 2♣ as a WEAK 2. At least you get to use the opening some of the time....

I'm sorry but I really have to LOL this

I think if you DO open this hand 2♣ then you should play 2♣ as weak because you're less likely to abuse this convention!!!!

I really would like to know how you think the auction will be made easier by opening 2♣?

If I open 1♥ I have a good chance of making a forcing 2♠ call... well on my way to showing my hand. I can NEVER NEVER NEVER do this when I open 2♣.

2♣ is just bad, imo.

[neilkaz]

I have only 15 HCP and a two suiter. The opps have 25 HCP and 25 cards in the minors. I really cannot expect this to be passed out if I open 1♥ and I want as much room as possible to try to describe my hand and also I usually get more info from PD's response after I open 1♥ than 2♣, at least in SAYCish systems.

[jdeegan]

Open for 1♥, but a 2♣ opening is not terrible, just not best. I haven't heard a better set of rules for minimum strong two bids (aside from the big balanced hands that depend on point count) in over 40 years. To wit:

1. Four quick tricks - gotta be able to stop their game, usually
2. Four losers for majors - three for minor suits - gotta have a play for our game
3. Tend to avoid with two or three suiters unless you have so many high cards that the bidding may likely die if you open just one of a suit.
4. There are a few exceptions like AKQxxxxxx in a major with an outside ace. With this open 2♣, rebid 2 of the suit, then jump to game' - you have game in hand and know where to play, but too much D to preempt.

You see the underlying theory in all these cases?

[gwnn]

Don't open 2♣ with hands that aren't comfortable with defending on the 6 level.

[whereagles]

kfay, on Jan 9 2009, 07:58 PM, said:

I really would like to know how you think the auction will be made easier by opening 2♣?

If I open 1♥ I have a good chance of making a forcing 2♠ call... well on my way to showing my hand. I can NEVER NEVER NEVER do this when I open 2♣.

My points are:

1. I don't care whether post-2♣ auctions are easy or precise because they are rare, regardless of style. Even in my style they are quite rare.

2. I do care that 1-level openings have a celing. I find that more important for a number of reasons, reasons you probably know as well as I.

You can disagree with me on the relative importance of the two points above, but that's just my call on the subject.