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Support after 4SF

#1 User is offline   kgr 

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Posted 2009-January-05, 17:58

1D-1H
1S-2C!
2D-2S
...
 
2C=4th suit GF
Is 2S always a 4-card here?
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#2 User is offline   Cascade 

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Posted 2009-January-05, 18:07

There could be some problematic hand with say 3=5=2=3 and no club stopper that would bid 2♠ if the texture was right - perhaps

♠ KQx
♥ AKxxx
♦ Jx
♣ xxx

But otherwise four spades would be expected.
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#3 User is offline   gnasher 

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Posted 2009-January-05, 18:21

It depends on what 3♣ would mean. If 3♣ is natural, you have to be able to do something with awkward hands like that suggested by Cascade. I prefer to play
  1♦-1♥
  1♠-3♣
as natural and game-forcing, so that I can play 2♣ followed by 3♣ as more 4th suit forcing, and therefore promise four spades with 2♠.
... that would still not be conclusive proof, before someone wants to explain that to me as well as if I was a 5 year-old. - gwnn
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#4 User is offline   Fluffy 

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Posted 2009-January-06, 03:00

I play 2♣ + 3♣ as 5-5 invitational hand.

I never realiced there could be a problem with some hands, I think 2♠ is GF in spades and slam going. With the problem hand I think I would rather bid 3♦.
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#5 User is offline   Viren169 

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Posted 2009-January-06, 06:51

No...

- could be a good 3 card suit without club stop
- 4-3 fits improves declarer play!
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#6 User is offline   andy_h 

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Posted 2009-January-06, 07:02

Agree with gnasher that it probably depends on what direct 3C over 1S would be. I play direct 3C as 5-5 invitational, so going via 2C then bidding 3C is 5-5 GF for me. In the given auction, 2S would promise 4+ spades. In Cascade's hand, I would have to bid 2H in my partnership.
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#7 User is offline   kgr 

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Posted 2009-January-06, 16:43

Thanks all for the answers.
The auction did go:
1♦-1♥!
1♠!-2♣!
2♦-2♥
2NT-4NT
5♥-6♥
 
1♥=4+card ♠ (can be 4-4 M)
1♠=4+card ♥
2♣=4th suit GF
 
During the auction I wasn't sure if 2♥ always showed 4 card ♥. (After the auction we agreed that it should. We feel more comfortable with that).
I took 4NT as RKC for ♥ (this was MP's and we missed a good 6NT).
 
....Suppose that 2♥ shows a 4-4 ♥ fit: Do 2♠ till 3♦ show side suits/extra length or should they be controls bids? ..And 3♥?
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#8 User is offline   Fluffy 

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Posted 2009-January-06, 17:19

you are mixing up hearts and spades koen.

About your question, after 1♦-1♥-1♠-2♣-2♦-2♠, partner will always pattern out to show 4153 (3 clubs), 4252 (2NT) or any 6421 (3 diamonds).

After that everything is a cue.
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#9 User is offline   kgr 

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Posted 2009-January-06, 17:28

Fluffy, on Jan 7 2009, 01:19 AM, said:

you are mixing up hearts and spades koen.

That are our agreements and how the bidding went. It would have been better if I kept the original bidding to avoid confusion.

Quote

About your question, after 1♦-1♥-1♠-2♣-2♦-2♠, partner will always pattern out to show 4153 (3 clubs), 4252 (2NT) or any 6421 (3 diamonds).
After that everything is a cue.

We have the agreement that controls starts from 3♠, but can 3♦ in the bidding below show anything else the a control (A, K or Q in partners suit) or should it also show some ♦ length?
1♦-1♥
1♠-2♣
2♦-2♠
3♣-3♦
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#10 User is offline   Fluffy 

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Posted 2009-January-06, 17:58

I missed your reversal majors sorry.

I think 3♦ clearly shows ♦A or ♦K, there is a point for it showing lenght I guess and let partner know ♦Q is huge, but I don't complicate things that much.
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